The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

Nominations for the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee

The first item is the nomination for the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. Following the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee becoming vacant, I invite nominations under Standing Order 17.2F for the election of a new Chair.
The Business Committee has decided that the Chair should remain allocated to the Labour group. Only a Member of that political group may be nominated as Chair, and only a Member of the same political group may make the nomination. As the Labour group has more than 20 Members, the nomination must be seconded by another Member of the same group.
I invite nominations, therefore, for the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I nominate Mick Antoniw?

I call for another Member from the same political group to second that nomination.

Jenny Rathbone AC: May I second that?

Jane Hutt AC: Can I second Mick Antoniw for Chair?

Thank you. Are there any further nominations? No. Does any Member object to the nomination? I therefore declare that Mick Antoniw is elected as Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, and may I wish him well in that work?

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education—Postponed from 8 November

So, we move to the first agenda item, namely, questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education. The first question is from Leanne Wood.

Supply Teachers

Leanne Wood AC: 1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on terms and conditions for supply teachers? OAQ51292

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Leanne. The responsibility for teachers’ pay and conditions has yet to be transferred to Wales. But we both agree, I know from previous discussions over the years past, that we will welcome that very much indeed. On 24 October, I set out how we are working to support our temporary teachers. This includes £2.7 million funding available to support alternative school-based cluster supply arrangements and the scoping of a central matching register.

Leanne Wood AC: In recent weeks, I've received many representations from supply teachers, and it's clear that the system that currently exists is uneven, chaotic and exploitative. Agencies are driving down pay rates to such an extent that one supply teacher is now getting less than she was able to earn as a newly qualified teacher two decades ago. Now, that can't be right. Nor can it be right that profits are being made on the back of supply teachers' poor pay and conditions. Now, as Cabinet Secretary, there is something that you can do about this; you don't have to wait for the devolution of pay and conditions. So, will you commit to righting the wrongs of the past by introducing a centralised system for supply teachers in Wales, for the whole of Wales, for all supply teachers, like the ones that exist already in Northern Ireland and Scotland, so that we can finally deliver fair play for this important but often marginalised sector in our education system?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Leanne. Let me make it absolutely clear: we do not condone the practice of schools or agencies negotiating low pay rates for supply teachers. The situation we have at present is that schools are responsible for the staffing of individual schools, and unless we move away from a direct management of schools model, that is currently the situation where we are at the moment. But that's not to say that we can simply rest on our laurels and do nothing until the devolution of pay and conditions arrives.
The WelshGovernmentrecently published the code of practice of ethical employment in supply chains, and that has been circulated to all schools and to local authorities to remind them of their commitments and the Welsh Government's commitments to ethical supply processes. We've introduced this new pilot to look to see whether that provides us with a solution, moving forward. But it's also important to recognise that, when the task and finish group set up by my predecessor looked at this issue, they did not recommend moving to a central register system—they couldn't make an overall recommendation. But I'm currently scoping work on whether that would be applicable to Wales, and my officials have been to see the Northern Ireland example.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Cabinet Secretary, I raisedthe question not long ago, and really, word by word, Leanne Wood has put the question in the same way, but I will still add my question. Employing supply teachers through agencies has led to lower pay and poor terms and conditions.That's what we're talking abouthere—the terms and conditions of supply teachers. A constituent in Newport has raised concerns with me very recently that instead of receiving £140 a day, they're receiving only £95, because the rest of the money goes to the agency that supplies the teacher. I don't think that's the right thing to do, Minister. Many of my constituent's colleagues are thinking of leaving this profession altogether and they want to know why Wales does not have—Leanne just mentioned the same thing—a central register system as they do in other devolved nations in the United Kingdom, so that we can keep our highly talented and devoted teachers in school. Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Given that you have just repeated the points that Leanne Wood just made, I will repeat the answer that I just gave to Leanne Wood. My officials are currently scoping whether a national model register wouldbe appropriate to our nation.

Vikki Howells AC: Cabinet Secretary, I've been having some interesting discussions with Rhondda Cynon Taf Council about their work with Welsh Government on the pilot project that you referred to, and I'm quite surprised that the directly elected Member for the Rhondda appears not to know that RCT council has been engaging in that pilot. I know that RCT believes that this could improve standards, enhance teacher development and reduce cost. What monitoring of this system will Welsh Government undertake to see what aspects of best practice can be rolled out across Wales?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Vikki. The response that we've had from schools and local authorities involved in the £2.7 million cluster has been extremely positive. Arrangements are in place to closely monitor and evaluate this initiative, including thecommissioning of a formal research project, independentof the Government, so that we can ascertain the impact that this pilot has. What's importantis that we look at the impact on children especially, and standards in our schools, as well as the employment terms for individual teachers. What will also be really importantfrom that pilot is to give us the evidence of whether this is a viable option to put out right the way across the system, not just for newly qualified teachers in the pilot areas.

Neil McEvoy AC: Cabinet Secretary, I'm advised that New Directions is not the cheapest option for supply teachers in Wales, yet they are thepreferred agency. The following allegations aboutfreebies said to be used by New Directions have been made. I have no opinion as to the veracity or the truthfulness of these allegations, but they have been put. It has been alleged to me that New Directions provide free sport event tickets, boozy free golf days, and football kits for schools, allegedly in order to secure more business. Will you investigate these allegations andreport back to this Chamber?

Kirsty Williams AC: If the Member is able to provide evidence of those allegations, I would be more than happy to investigate them. Actually, I am due to meet with New Directions shortly to discuss Members' concerns and my concerns over supply teaching.

Rural Schools

Mark Isherwood AC: 2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government proposals for the closure of rural schools? OAQ51262

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Mark. A 14-week consultation on proposals to strengthen the school organisation code in respect of a presumption against closure of rural schools ended on 30 September. We are currently in the process of analysing consultation responses. We aim to publish a summary of the responses before the end of this year.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you for that. As you're aware, concerns are regularly raised that Welsh Government criteria for twenty-first century schools funding is driving council decisions on which schools to close. When I attended the call-in on the rural school closures in Flintshire last year, evidence-based presentations were made in accordance with the Welsh Government's own school organisation code.Despite that, the schools were closed after an entirely party political speech, which ignored the code completely, by the council leader. I recently wrote to you regarding proposals by Angleseycouncil to close Ysgol Talwrn under their review of primary education provision in the Llangefni area. You concluded that letter by explaining that the strengthening, as you put it, of the statutory school organisation code, following consultation, will follow, but any changes to the current version of the code wouldnot be retrospective. What actioncan you and the Welsh Government take if and when communities have evidence to show that the schoolorganisation code and the data being used by the council are an apparent breach of the Welsh Government's requirements?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Mark. I am very clear thatthere can be real benefits—academic, cultural and social—to pupils in communities through the delivery of high-qualityeducation in small and rural schools. I know, andparents across rural Wales know, that small, rural schools can play animportant role in raising standards and extendingopportunity for all.
I'm convinced that there is an opportunity to strengthen the code. It's apromise that I made in opposition and it is a promise that I am fulfilling andfollowing through onwith the consultation, but it is correct to say that it will not be retrospective. If the Member has concerns about the way in which local authorities are conducting their school organisation and school places policy, then I would be very, very content to look at that. These processes are complex and can be time-consuming, and sometimes they are time-consumingbecause officials spend a great deal of time ensuring that local authorities have compliedwith the existing code and, I hope, will complywith a strengthened code following the consultation.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from theparty spokespeople.The Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, this Welsh Government, along with its predecessor administrations, has a legacy ofunderfunding Welsh schools.Weknow that there are huge differences in terms of school budgets between here and England, and that is putting pupils here in Wales at a serious disadvantage. According to NASUWT Cymru, the per-pupil funding gap, compared to schools in England, now stands at £678 per pupil. That's £678 less for Welsh pupils than forlearners in England. We're inthe bottom half of theinternational league tables. Wales is propping up the UK league tables in terms of its education system, andwhen you were in opposition, Cabinet Secretary, you committed to narrowing this gap. Now that you're in Government, what are you doing to sort it out?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Darren. What I'm doing in Government is to copingwith extremely difficultfinancial constraints thathave been placed upon us primarily by the austerity agenda that is being pursued by yourcolleagues in London. If we want to do something about education funding in the round, then I would urge the Chancellor, in his budget next week, tofollow the advice of the NAHT union and put new additional resources into the education budget, which would then give us anopportunity, via Barnettconsequentials, to review our education funding.

Darren Millar AC: Many people, Cabinet Secretary, will find your conversion into an apologist for previous Welsh Government failures to be utterly startling. You blame the UKGovernment for spending pressures and yet you know full well that thesituation is that forevery £1 spent on the education system in England, Walesreceives £1.20. There can be no excuses for the fact that Welsh pupils are disadvantaged by the funding settlement that your Government—this coalitionGovernment here in Wales—is putting into place. So, giventhat you won't commit to closingthis gap, how on earth do you expect schools across Wales todeliver on your national mission for education, if you won't fund them properly?

Kirsty Williams AC: Believe me, Darren, in arriving at the budget, I have carried out a line-by-line examination ofthe resourcesavailable to me and to match them to the national mission.The Member willalso be aware of thisGovernment's commitment, across Government, to put resources to the front line, via the revenue support grant tolocal authorities. I'm having very robustconversationswith councils thelength and breadth of Wales, and theywill continue onThursday and Friday ofthis week, to ensure that, having putthoseresources into the RSG, those moneys now find themselves in the classrooms of our schools in Wales.

Darren Millar AC: I say it again, Cabinet Secretary: for every £1 spent on the education system in England, Walesreceives £1.20. There can be no excuse for funding schools by giving them less finance per pupil, per head, than is currently the case. It's scandalous.
One way that you could seek to start addressing this particular issue is to target resources at disadvantaged groups, and this is one thing, of course, that the UK coalition Government, when your party was in Government over there, sought to do with the pupil deprivation grant, and of course we have welcomed the previous Welsh Labour Government following suit with that.
One of the disadvantaged groups that we have in Wales is children whose parents are serving in the military. Service children are often having their education disrupted due to parental postings that require school moves and they often need additional pastoral support if their parents are on deployment. We know that the evidence suggests that, without extra support, these factors can actually impact on education attainment and outcomes for service pupils.
In England, the disadvantage has been recognised and the UK Department for Education, not the Ministry of Defence, provides a service pupil premium to schools with service children. It's Remembrance Week, Cabinet Secretary; will you take the opportunity in this important week to commit to introducing the service pupil premium here in Wales?

Kirsty Williams AC: I'm very glad, Presiding Officer, that Darren Millar supports the Welsh Government's policy of the pupil development grant, which this year will be worth some £91 million to our most deprived children's education. Despite the severe pressure that this Government finds itself under in terms of budgets, we've been able to maintain our commitmentto those children who are on free school meals or who are looked after. In fact, despite the constraints, we are expanding the number of children that are eligible for PDG.
Darren makes a very good point with regard to pastoral care for children whose families are in the forces, and that's why I am so disappointedthat the MODhas decided to pull its funding for the support of the education of those children. I have written to the Secretary of State for Defence to ask him to reconsider. But, I have to say, Darren, this is a pattern that we are increasingly seeing from the Westminster Government, where it looks to shift cost away from what should be their responsibilitiesonto this devolved Government.
If there is evidence to suggest an impact on levels of attainmentfrom schoolchildrenbecauseof a whole range of issues that may be affecting them, I will continue to review that as I look to develop and strengthenthe pupil development grant. But I hope the MOD will change its mind.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: These are questions to Eluned Morgan. First of all, I welcome the full commitment that you made yesterday during the debate on the Welsh Language Commissioner’s annual report to continue with the Government’s aim of reaching a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and Plaid Cymru, of course, is fully supportive of that target. The strategy ‘Cymraeg 2050’ puts education centrally to your vision in order to reach that million. You also mentioned this yesterday.
But in looking at the Welsh-medium education strategy published in 2010, there was a target at that time of ensuring that 30 per cent of children at seven years old receive their education through the medium of Welsh by 2020. In the ‘Cymraeg 2050’ strategy, that target has been reduced to 24 per cent by 2021, and there is no intention of attaining that old target of 30 per cent by 2031.
Most of these new Welsh speakers will be created through the education system, but there’ll only be an increase of 110,000 Welsh speakers through the Welsh Government’s strategy over the next 33 years as compared with the 400,000 more additional Welsh speakers that are needed if we are to reach that target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050.
So, where will these 290,000 additional Welsh speakers come from?

Eluned Morgan AC: May I thank Siân Gwenllian very much for that? It’s quite right that I have committed to sticking to that target of achieving a million Welsh speakers. Education is crucial. That is the foundation, and that is the only way that we are going to attain it. At present, I am looking at a new strategy for Welsh-medium education for our schools. Of course, you will be aware that Aled is currently looking at the ideas that came from local government. He has been looking at the strategies, and he has discovered some examples in local government where they haven’t gone far enough. So we are looking at the way in which we are going to meet this target, and this will be included in the new Welsh-medium education strategy. We will ensure that we reach those milestones, which are important. Whether we achieve them swiftly or slowly, for me the most important thing is that we lay the foundations properly at the outset—that is what is most important.

Siân Gwenllian AC: So, you may have to review the targets contained within the ‘Cymraeg 2050’ strategy.
In the ‘Education in Wales: Our National Mission 2017-21’ document, there is a suggestion that pupils will not take the new Welsh language qualification, which will replace second-language Welsh, until 2026 at the earliest. Now, that’s a cause of concern because it contradicts what was said in this Chamber on 28 September 2016. I asked the Minister for Welsh language at the time, Alun Davies:
‘Can you confirm…that you will be replacing Welsh as a second language with one single Welsh qualification that every pupil will have by 2021?’
and he responded:
‘The second language Welsh qualification will be replaced in exactly the way that you have suggested in 2021.’
On page 20 of the ‘Our National Mission’ document, it states that teaching the new GCSE qualification will start for the first time in 2024-25, which suggests that we will have to wait until 2026-27 until there is a single Welsh language qualification taken by all pupils. This is entirely contrary to what the Minister told me in September 2016, namely that there would be a single Welsh language qualification replacing second-language Welsh by 2021.
Do you agree with me that it is entirely unacceptable that another generation of children is to be deprived of the ability to speak Welsh fluently because of the lack of pace of this Government?

Eluned Morgan AC: I do think that there is very much that we can do to improve the teaching of Welsh as a second language to pupils in Wales, but I would like to look at the evidence to see what works. I am a new Minister and I have the right to look at the way in which the new strategy is going to appear. I’m not going to commit to something that will mean that I have to stick to a plan until 2021 until I’ve reviewed it. That doesn’t mean to say that we won't do it soon, but I'm not going to do it this week, as was planned originally.

Siân Gwenllian AC: In this case, of course, with the new qualification, there is a whole host of evidence supporting the need for this change, and a decision has been taken to accept that. It’s a matter of making progress now, and it’s this sluggishness that concerns me.
The consultation period on the Welsh language Bill White Paper has now concluded, and, again, I welcome your commitment, made yesterday, to keep an open mind on possible changes to this Bill, including the Government’s intention to abolish the role of the Welsh Language Commissioner.
The purpose of any new legislation on the Welsh language should be to simplify the standards process, but also to enhance the basic rights of Welsh speakers, which means extending standards to other sectors. There are numerous examples as to why those standards need to be extended into the private sector, and those have been highlighted over the past few months: Santander and Lloyds Bank refusing to receive papers through the medium of Welsh, and Great Western Railway flatly refusing to use bilingual signage and announcements. Members of your own Government have been critical of this lack of respect for the Welsh language, including the First Minister yesterday.
You mentioned yesterday the need to take a carrot-and-stick approach, but the attitude of companies such as Great Western Railway demonstrates clearly why that method doesn’t work. It has failed to secure the rightsof Welsh speakers to receive services through the medium of their own language. The examples of Great Western and others—

You need to come to a question.

Siân Gwenllian AC: It shows a lack of respect for the Welsh language. Do you agree that the recent history and experiences of people show that persuasion alone won’t be an effective tool in securing the rights of Welsh speakers?

Eluned Morgan AC: Certainly, at times you need the stick in addition to the carrot, I quite agree. But meanwhile, while we’re awaiting the new standards, for example on health—and I will be looking at those over the ensuing weeks—what is important, I believe, is that we keep the pressure on these private companies. I’ve already asked the officials in the department to ensure that I know of any cases where the companies aren’t going as far as they should so that I can write directly. I have asked whether I can write to Great Western Railway, for example, to ensure that we keep the pressure up on them. There is no reason whatsoever why they cannot demonstrate slightly more recognition of the Welsh language and its use as a matter of respect for our nation, and we will be keeping the pressure on these companies.

UKIP spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, in March of this year you were featured in the media talking about equality and bullying in schools. The announcements largely focused on homophobic, biphobic and transphobic bullying in the schools. Can the Minister confirm to me that no form of bullying is acceptable and that whilst the article concentrated quite rightly on tackling bullying of this nature, bullying that is not motivated by such issues will also be the subject of zero tolerance and dealt with every bit as robustly?

Kirsty Williams AC: I would be very happy to give the Member that absolute assurance. I have a zero-tolerance approach to all forms of bullying in Welsh education.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Also in the media coverage at that time, you quite rightly spoke about the damage that bullying can do to the learning and progress of children in school. Would you agree with me that bullying among teachers, aside from the distress it would cause to the teacher's personal and professional life, could also impact negatively on our schoolchildren, as it would almost inevitably lead to unhappy teachers who are likely to have their performance in the classroom negatively impacted, and low morale would be present in the classroom producing a no-win situation?

Kirsty Williams AC: I thank the Member for that. In our national mission, we establish a new priority, which is the issue of well-being, recognising that children cannot make the most of their educational opportunities if issues around their well-being are not being addressed. I also want Wales to be the place to be an educational professional. Issues around work-life balance, respectful workplaces and workload arereally important to our teaching profession, and I would expect all our teachers to feel supported when working in Welsh educational establishments.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. So, will you undertake to investigate the prevalence of school staff bullying to make schools a bully-free zone not just for the children, but for all kinds of staff involved in the running of the school, and consider a specific disciplinary route for the investigation of claims of bullying, giving it the special status that it has rightly been afforded when it is between schoolchildren? And will she undertake to ask schools to report to her so that she can make available to us any figure relating to allegations and findings of bullying taking place among all kinds of staff in our schools? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: I think it's important to remember that as a Welsh Government we do not directly employ teachers; that is a matter for individual schools and governing bodies. I would expect any teacher who had concerns about how they were being treated in their workplace to be able to raise that with the headteacher, but if that was not appropriate, then with their governing body and within their union, as most of the profession are members of the union. As I said, I want Wales to be the place to be a teacher. Teacher well-being is important to me. That's why we've instituted the workforce survey,so that I can hear directly from teachers about the issues that are affectingthem. But if the Member has evidence of bullying in schools that is not being taken seriously, then I would ask the Member to write to me and I can assure her that my officials will make the necessary investigations.

Questions 3 [OAQ51263], 4 [OAQ51259] and 5 [OAQ51285] are withdrawn. Question 6, therefore—Neil McEvoy.

Level-5 Status Training

Neil McEvoy AC: 6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on progress in funding level-5 status training for teaching assistants? OAQ51276

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Mr McEvoy. There are a number of opportunities for teaching assistants to undertake vocational courses endorsed by Qualifications Wales up to level 3. There are level 5 courses, which are foundation degrees and are delivered by higher education providers. Individuals can access a range of funding sources to undertake these courses.

Neil McEvoy AC: Okay, thanks. Level 5 is not a qualification but it's a status. It brings no increase in pay. Level 1 teaching assistantscan attain it—this is all from a teaching assistant who's raised concerns with me. Training takes just six weeks—just three days out of school. Only a single piece of work needs to be prepared for a child, a group or a class. The qualification you need to do it is a single GCSE in maths or English. I think, really, this is just another example of education being used as a cash cow to pay for meaningless not even qualifications in this case, which make non-teaching staff able to undertake more responsibilities without extra pay. The question behind all this, on behalf of the members of staff who contacted me, is: how is this masquerade any use at all in raising standards?

Kirsty Williams AC: I have made a commitmentin 'Education in Wales: Our national mission—Action Plan 2017-21' to ensure our teachers are well supported by a range of learning support professionals who can provide the additional capacity that is needed to meet the needs of every child. Let me be absolutely clear on the opportunities that are available. Support is available for teaching assistants to access up to £1,500 of funding through the Welsh Government learning grant to undertake vocational qualifications. As of next year, when we implement our Diamond review, there will be a fairer mechanism for supporting access to foundation degrees and additional funding of £920,000 has been provided to regional consortia to deliver a number of programmes that support the professional learning of teaching assistants, including the delivery of a higher level teaching assistants scheme, which is provided to them free of charge. In addition, training will shortly be offered to those who need to meet the minimum requirements relating to literacy and numeracy qualifications to undertake the higher level teaching assistant scheme. Crucially, next year, in 2018, we will put in place professional standards for assisting teaching in schools to contribute to our raising standards agenda.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, you've been in position now for some 18 months. What is your assessment of the capacity within the education system for teachers and teaching assistants to be able to take on the training that they require for continuousprofessional development and in particular to raise standards? There is one thing bringing your policy document forward and allocating resource to that, there's another separate issue about the capacity of the system to be able to create the time and the space for that training to be undertaken. I'd be interested to hear what your opinion is now, after 18 monthsin post, of the ability of the education system here in Wales to provide those training opportunities, both for teaching assistants but also for professional teachers as well.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Andrew, for what I think is a very fair point. We have resources allocated to continuous professional learning of our teachingand non-teaching staff. We are developing a national approach, so regardless of where you find yourself employed in Wales, you will have access to moderated and robust training programmes. It is right to identify the challenge of creating the space for teachers and support staff to do that. There are a number of ways in which we are looking at supporting: there are traditional in-service training days that are available to schools, but I believe the best professional learning often happens when children are in the classroom themselves; there are a number of schools, for instance, that are looking at an asymmetric week, whichactually allowsteachers some time at the end of the school working week to be able to work together to address continual professional learning needs; and we continue to look to work with schools to ensure that the resources are there, the courses are there and we create the time to allow professionals to undertake that. It is also about setting the expectation of school leaders that they will release their staff for training, and that's an important part of our new professional standards that set the expectation that teachers will be continuous learners throughout their professional career and that they can demand that of their school leadership.

Oxbridge Universities

Caroline Jones AC: 7. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the actions that the Welsh Government is taking to improve the numbers of Welsh students attending Oxbridge universities? OAQ51270

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Caroline. The Seren network has been established to support young people in their ambitions to apply to leading universities across the UK and internationally, and that includes Oxbridge. Feedback this year suggests that many more applications are now being made to both Oxford and Cambridge universities, who are active and strong supporters of our Seren programme.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. According to the access fellow at Jesus College, Oxford, Welsh students lack the confidence to apply to Oxbridge and, whilst the Seren programme is helping some students, we're still not doing enough to challenge our best and brightest pupils. Cabinet Secretary, what steps are you taking to ensure that Welsh students not only achieve excellent grades but also have the confidence to achieve their full potential?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Caroline. I'd be very pleased to share with the Chamber, if Members are not aware, the latest Universities and Colleges Admissions Service data on applications to Oxford and Cambridge universities and also to vet courses and medical courses, where the applications have to be made by 15 October. I'm very pleased to say that there has been an upturn in applications to that. Applications from Wales for courses with 15 October deadline are up 6 per cent, despite a significant drop in the 18-year-old cohort. Applications for medical courses are up 2 per cent. I'm sure Members agree that these are encouraging figures and show that the Seren network is really bedding down and adding value.

Adam Price AC: I was very pleased to be able to speak at a Seren network event in Llanelli on Friday. I think all of us would want to encourage as many Welsh students as possible to apply for these two world-leading education institutions, but also to others in the same category as well—to Trinity College Dublin, to the Sorbonne, to Heidelberg, to Tübingen, and further afield to Princeton, Stanford and to other American universities available—[Laughter.]

Kirsty Williams AC: Come on, say it. [Laughter.] Go on. [Laughter.]

Adam Price AC: I would have to declare an interest. But, look, the Diamond review made a commitment that we would actually open access to right across Europe and also have a pilot beyond Europe itself—for North American and other leading institutions. Can the Cabinet Secretary update us on where the Welsh Government are with that proposal?

Kirsty Williams AC: Presiding Officer, the Member is just too modest to tell us about his time spent at Harvard. I myself got as far as sitting on the steps of the library of Harvard this summer whilst on holiday, but I had to settle for a year at the University of Missouri in Columbia, which is perhaps not quite as auspicious as the Member's time at Harvard.
But the Member makes a very good point: Seren isn't just about supporting students to go to Oxford and Cambridge; it's supporting students to go to Russell universities across the United Kingdom, including our Russell Group university here in Wales, Cardiff University, which is in the top 100 universities. We've got fantastic institutions to go to here in Wales. But you're right: officials are currently scoping the opportunities to allow us to have a fully portable Diamond package, which would mean that those students who aspire to go to universities, whether that's in the United States or to the Sorbonne or those other great seats of learning—no Welsh student who has the capacity and the desire to pursue their education should be stopped from doing that because of issues around financial pressure, and I will look forward to updating the Member shortly.

The Recruitment of Teachers

Joyce Watson AC: 8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the recruitment of teachers in Wales? OAQ51266

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Joyce. We want teaching, as I said to Caroline earlier, to be a first-choice profession so that we can attract the very best to Welsh schools. In addition to our incentives, we are working with the sector to actively promote teaching, to recruit the very best and brightest individuals into the profession.

Joyce Watson AC: I was particularly pleased to hear about the new monetary incentives for new graduates considering a career in teaching in Wales. That will attract, we hope, high-achieving graduatesinto thatprofession, particularly with thepriority subject areas like maths, physics, chemistry, Welsh, and the new emerging computer sciences, because that's the only way, as I can see fit, that we will be able to raise educational standards throughout the whole of Wales. Cabinet Secretary, do you, at this stage, have any details on when thatscheme will be launched? And whatis your anticipation of how many teachers it will deliver in Mid and West Wales?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Joyce. We are currently working with the sector to promote the profession, as I said, and our incentive scheme for priority subjects that is availableto eligible studentsnow. My recent announcement regarding amendments to thescheme, such as including computer science as a top priority, will be available to eligible studentsfrom September 2018. We are also working to launch a national recruitment campaign. We've had great success in Government with regard to the ‘Train. Work. Live.’ scheme that the Cabinet Secretary for health has introduced for doctors and nurses, and we're looking to build upon that Welsh brand and other aspects of public service to recruit the very best into the teaching profession.

Question 9 [OAQ51257] is withdrawn.Question 10—Rhianon Passmore is not in the Chamber to ask the question. Question 11—Simon Thomas.

University Funding

Simon Thomas AC: 11. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on university funding? OAQ51290

Kirsty Williams AC: Diolch yn fawr, Simon. The reforms that we are implementing in response to the Diamond review will create a sustainable and progressive higher education funding settlement for Wales that supports students when they need it the most, and enables our universities to compete domestically and, as we've just heard, internationally also.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you for that response. I’m particularly interested in what we can do to expand beyond what Diamond, even, is suggesting on the funding of universities. If you look at Aberystwyth University, I welcome the fact that there’s been recent investment in a veterinary clinic in that university, and there’s been investment in moving towards establishing veterinary courses at the university. But in looking beyond the situation that we’re currently in, with Brexit and changes in the veterinary profession, I believe that there is now room to make the case that we need a full veterinary school at a Welsh university, and Aberystwyth, and IBERS—the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences—would be the ideal place to establish such a school.So, are you now discussing this with the universities in Wales and the funding council in terms of looking towards the horizon and seeing this coming to fruition?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Simon. Can I put on record how fantastically I think the new vice-chancellor at Aberystwyth, Elizabeth Treasure, is doing? We've seen some really impressive student satisfaction results from the university and the example of that partnership working with London to establish partial veterinary education in Aberystwyth is very welcome indeed.
I've yet to have discussions with the vice-chancellor about establishing a fullveterinary course at Aberystwyth, but I meet very regularly with vice-chancellors and, of course, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales. It would be an expensive subject. The Diamond package does give us that room for manoeuvre to look at how we would support expensive subjects, not just veterinary science, but other subjects going forward, and I'm sure that Aberystwyth, HEFCW and the other vice-chancellors won't be slow in coming forward if they think that there are opportunities to develop the offer at Welsh universities.

The Welsh Language White Paper

Adam Price AC: 12. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh language White Paper? OAQ51289

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I’m not a Cabinet Secretary, but I will respond to that question, and that is that the consultation on the White Paper, of course, closed about 15 days ago. We now have time to analyse the responses and we will bring some kind of response forward over the ensuing few weeks.

Adam Price AC: The common practice, I believe, is to refer the question to the Cabinet Secretary.
The Minister yesterday referred to the need for evidence now for the best models in terms of language regulation. I think that the predecessor Minister had only been able to referto a very general report on regulation from the House of Lords, which went back to 2004. So, there's a lack of an evidence base; there's no doubt about that. Can the Minister explain what kind of evidence, looking at best practice in terms of language regulation models across the world, that you will now be commissioning?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I think that what we need to look at is success stories in language growth. There are examples in Europe: the Basque Country, for example, has been extremely successful, and I'm sure there are other examples. I will now set about studying those. But what is important is that we keep our eye on this. It's a question of priorities. That is what Nye Bevan used to say—you have to just prioritise things. More important for me than anything else is that we should keep an eye on these 1 million speakers. So, for me, it's more important that we focus on education and what we want to put in place for Welsh education. Of course we have to look at standards. Standardsare going to be published, but as regards the priorities, I just want to keep an eye on those.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary and Minister.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services—Postponed from 8 November

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services. And the first question is from Caroline Jones.

Drug-related Admissions

Caroline Jones AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government doing to reduce the numbers of drug-related hospital admissions? OAQ51272

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government invest almost £50 million a year in our substance misuse agenda. Our substance misuse delivery plan, going up to 2018, reaffirms this Government’s commitment to tackle substance misuse. It sets out the detailed actions we and our delivery partners are taking to prevent and respond to substance misuse amongst individuals and in communities across Wales.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. There has been a massive increase in the number of synthetic cannabinoids, such as spice, despite a change in the law. Hospitals across Wales are now treating more than three people every day for these substances. Spice intoxication has become a far too common sight in our towns and cities, and the effects have led it to be nicknamed 'the zombie drug'. Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with colleagues in your Government and in the UK Government about the steps we can take to reduce the numbers of people who end up in hospital as a result of taking such substances?

Vaughan Gething AC: I recognise the concern behind the question, but, with respect, I don't think it's simply a question of the Government having discussions to try and reduce this matter, because there isn't a simple answer. The UK Government in 2015-16 passed the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016, which introduced a blanket ban on a range of psychoactive substances, and that tries to take account of the fact that there are a range of new substances coming into the market and into this country on a fairly regular basis. Many of those are cannabinoids, as indeed spice is.
What we are trying to do is to understand what we can do to reduce harm. Now, simply trying to ban all these substances isn't it on its own. It is also about trying to understand how we educate people about the risks, it's also about how we understand the risks that are being run. That is why the Welsh Emerging Drugs and Identification of Novel Substances service in Wales, which helps to test substances from across the UK, is well used and well respected. It is really important for individuals, helping them to understand the risks they are taking, but also from a treatment point of view, to understand what is potentially in people's systems. There is a constant and never ending discussion about what we need to do to try and manage the demand that comes in with the range of social challenges that we face, but also the range of new substances that are appearing in our communities, and then the response between health, local authorities, the third sector and the police to try and manage this in the most sensible and effective way possible. But this is not easy, and I will not pretend that it is.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, I listened carefully to your answer to the principal question, and you touched on education and the importance of educating people about the dangers of drugs and, in particular, personal responsibility. What is your assessment of the advice that is available to help young people, in particular, via the education system, to be able to understand the risks associated with illicit drug taking and the support that, if they do find themselves in the wrong environment, they might be able to access to help them in any dependency they might build up on using these types of drugs?

Vaughan Gething AC: Again, I recognise the question. I refer to education in its broadest sense, because I don't think there's just an issue for the school system. It's an issue of partnerships between the third sector, between the police, between ourselves, and people in communities as well, and how we equip people with the best possible advice on the impact of the various substances that are available, but also how you deal with challenges like peer pressure that exist in a whole range of different settings. We made a difficult choice in the budget about some of the choices we had to make on budgetary matters, but I do know that in discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, we were thinking about how the new curriculum may help to equip people to make different choices. But it isn't simply a matter for the curriculum or for the quality of teaching and learning within our schools; it is a much broader societal challenge. That's why, for example, we fund Dan 24/7. That is, as it says, a 24-hour seven-day-a-week bilingual advice line, trying to take away some of the things that people may fear in going to figures in authority or responsibility to ask for support or advice. So, this is part of the honest challenge that every part of the UK and further afield faces: the range and the variety of interventions, the support mechanisms that we have, and understanding what is successful in allowing us to most effectively combat the challenge that we have. But as I said at the end to Caroline Jones, this isn't easy, we shouldn't pretend it is, but absolutely, there's a really powerful reason to want to try and understand what is the most effective response, and then to weigh, measure, understand and evaluate whether that's had the effect that we wanted it to.

Question 2 [OAQ51281] was withdrawn. Question 3, Neil Hamilton.

Social Care in Mid and West Wales

Neil Hamilton AC: 3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on social care in Mid and West Wales? OAQ51275

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you for the question. We have, as Neil will know, prioritised social care as a sector of strategic national importance, and the commitment is being underpinned by extra funding: a total of £55 million of recurrent additional funding has been provided to local authorities for use in social services in 2017-18, and we're also, of course, committed to doubling the capital people can keep when entering residential care to £50,000. Through the integrated care fund, we are providing £60 million for the delivery of integrated care across Wales, and this includes funding for reablement services, support for timely and effective discharges from hospital, and integrated care teams in mid and west Wales.

Neil Hamilton AC: I thank the Minister for that answer, congratulate him on his appointment and welcome him to his new role. He will know from his briefing, if he wasn't aware already, that the case of the Bodlondeb care home in Aberystwyth has been raised several times in this Chamber—not least by my colleague Simon Thomas—and outside, by no less exalted a figure than the Llywydd herself. Ceredigion County Council has recently taken the final decision to close this nursing home, but there appear to be no adequate plans in Ceredigion for alternative care for the residents of this home, and indeed no plan for the provision of social care in that part of the county for the future. So, whilst the Minister has rightly said how much money has been provided by Welsh Government for these purposes, what can be done in circumstances where county councils, who are the providers on the ground, don't make adequate provision for the future? And what powers does he have to fill the void that is left in this kind of situation?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Neil raises an important point here, and we firmly believe that Ceredigion County Council, like any other council, has to adequately plan its care provision based on local needs and deal with the issues that have been raised. Now, I do appreciate, and we should all be aware, that this has been a difficult time for all concerned, not least the residents, and the safety and well-being of residents has to be all of our concerns. We do understand that over the summer, as Neil will know, Ceredigion County Council consulted on the closure of Bodlondeb care home, which ended on 25 September. The council cabinet met on 7 November to make that decision, as he referred to, on the closure of the home and it was, we are informed, made as a result of extensive consultation with the sector and with residents. But I also understand that the council commissioned independent advocates and independent mental capacity advocates to ensure that the voice and opinion of residents were heard during the process. But of course, you raise the important point of 'What now?' in that continuing care and making sure their needs are properly taken care of. We would expect that Ceredigion County Council, as any other local authority with responsibility for this, takes care of those needs going forward.

Russell George AC: Can I welcome the Minister to his new post? It's my understanding that the Welsh Government has been working very closely with Powys County Council following, of course, the damning report from Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales into the ways in which children's services are being delivered in Powys.Delivering services across a large sparsely populated area is extremely challenging. Can I ask what considerations have been given to providing the local authority with additional funding from the Welsh Government to support the change and re-design of the service, which is required, and indeed, of course, the ongoing running costs of running a crucial service, particularly across a large sparsely populated area of rural Wales?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you for that question. You rightly raised the issue of sparsity and the challenges of providing any public services, let alone children's social care and adult social care, across a region such as that, but, of course, it doesn't detract from the necessity to make sure that every individual, regardless of the rural nature of that constituency, is properly cared for.
I mentioned in my previous answer the additional funding that we have put into social care in several different ways, and that includes contributions made towards Powys as well. It may be helpful to know that I'm shortly expecting to see the results of the first 20 days of work on the improvement plan within Powys care provision. I understand it has gone to CSSIW, and they are analysing it now and examining it to see that sufficient progress has been made, because it is important that, in going forward, we can give the reassurance that the needs of everybody within Powys, within social care, are properly looked after. I hope to update Members of the Assembly shortly, as soon as I've seen that improvement report.

Simon Thomas AC: May I also congratulate the Minister on his new role? I'm in a little bit of confusion now because I want to ask about Bodlondeb and Powys, but I won't get away with that. So, I will say it in these terms: that I support retaining the Bodlondeb home open, for the time being, whilst we seek a broader assessment of the situation in terms of care and nursing beds in mid Wales, and ask specifically the Minister today, as he has pledged to provide a report on the basis of the CSSIW report on children's services in Powys, whether it will be possible for us, as Assembly Members, to see that report. Because, as I understand it, it is an improvement plan and I do think that that needs broader scrutiny by the public. One way of doing that, of course, is to share that with Assembly Members.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Simon, you've got my undertaking that all that I can share with Members of the Assembly, I will. First of all, it needs to go to CSSIW for their consideration. I'll need to see it first as well, but in the interest of transparency, I will be keen to make sure that everything that I can share with Assembly Members is shared because it's also important, in doing that, that we can give assurance of what has been done, but also look at the progress that still needs to be made, frankly, as well.
In terms of Bodlondeb care home, as I mentioned in my previous response, this has been a very difficult time when these decisions were being made, but it isn't for Welsh Government Ministers to step directly into the fray and determine what should actually be an assessment of local needs by the providers there, on the ground, by the local authority. But I'm sure they will have heard his concerns once again, and I think all of us are focused on the needs of those individuals who previously were in Bodlondeb, but also on the future needs of individuals who will also need care provision in that area.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. UKIP spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, whilst in Bridgend last week, I was contacted—spoken to—by a constituent whose neighbour was released from hospital just days after suffering from a stroke, yet they didn't have, again, any care plan in place. The individual concerned had no family nearby and was left to fend for themselves. Unfortunately, this constituent's situation is far from unique, as five weeks ago, I reported on someone who had a triple heart bypass in the same situation at the age of 83. I have been made aware of many, many instances where patients are discharged from hospital without the appropriate care plan and ongoing care in place, forced to rely on the kindness of their neighbours because the state has let them down. Minister, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that all vulnerable discharged patients from hospitals have a care plan in place?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Well, thank you for that question. Can I say, first of all, the individual items of that case, if you want to bring them to my attention, either write to me, or, if you want to meet with me, I'm more than happy to discuss them, and see what can be done in that individual case?
One of the biggest factors in front of us is the issue of delayed transfers of care, of course. I don't know whether that was a material factor in this particular instance, but, certainly, we are aware that, in the ABMU area, in particular, the significant increase recently was a result of delayed transfers of care, and I wonder if that hit on to the impacts. But I'll have a look at the individual instance you refer to, and we'll see what can be done.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. Of course, the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 is supposed to transform the way social care is delivered, and ensure everyone who needs care gets care. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case. Not only are we seeing patients sent home without anyone to help meet their care needs, but we also have large numbers of patients in hospital far longer than they need to be, because they have no ongoing care package. The latest delayed transfer of care statistics show 462 people in hospital far longer than they need to be. The majority of these patients spend around a month longer in hospital because there is no community care available, or there is lack of care home spaces. Minister, it is a well-known fact that the longer these patients spend in hospital, the longer their recovery will take.
What is your Government doing to eliminate delayed transfers of care?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Well, again, I thank you for that further question. And it is a real issue, and it's an issue that we're investing both expertise and competence but also funding in, and working with health boards and local authorities on the ground. We have seen an increase in the August period, and it's an increase that we hadn't seen in the previous 18 months. And two of those areas were ABMU—Abertawe Bro Morgannwg—and also Hywel Dda. So, we're directly supporting local authorities in their efforts to secure additional service capacity, and to make, I have to say, more effective use of the provision that is already available. And part of this is joined-up working in those regions.
We do expect health boards and local authorities to continue to work in close collaboration, making the best possible use of the intermediate care funding that we've made available, to ensure that improvement is sustained, and that capacity issues are addressed ahead of, as we all know, the forthcoming season of winter pressures. There is some optimism here, however, because we do have some areas that are doing well in this area of delayed transfers. So, in the Powys health board region, for example, delayed transfers of care continue to be lower than historical levels, and there have been issues before, despite periodic fluctuation. And the latest published figures, in September, show a 31 per cent reduction in delays in comparison with the previous months. So, it does show, within the existing capacity on the ground, things can be made to work, but it takes some joined-up thinking.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. We are well aware that social care is facing increasing demand. Unfortunately, we are not meeting that demand. This is highlighted all too clearly by Age Cymru's recent 'Care in Crisis' report. Age Cymru found that older people in some parts of Wales were not getting the required carers assessments, and that there was huge variation between local authorities. The social services Act was supposed to end the postcode lottery of care, but we arestill finding that some local authorities are better than others in delivering this package.
Minister, what more can your Government do to ensure that local authorities fulfil their duties under the Act, and ensure that budget cuts do not impact upon their ability to fulfil these duties? And I would also like to say that, whilst monitoring this situation across my region, I have noticed within the region different standards of care being given to elderly patients, and I'd like to speak to you at some time about it.
Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, again, for that supplementary question. And, as we discussed in committee earlier this morning, there is a great deal we can do within existing resources by acting more cleverly. And that includes the use of regional partnership working tojointly commission services, it includes the use of pooled budgets, so that we can share what the priorities are across a region rather than trying to do it on a piecemeal basis, and there are many other things, including the ICT fund, that can be used to do these things. But, ultimately—as I was in the committee this morning, and the Cabinet Secretary was—we have to be quite frank as well: there is no new pot of money. We work withinthe constraints that we have, and I know that, by the end of 2019-20, the Welsh resource budget will be 7 per cent smaller. It will be a £1 billion smaller than it was in 2010, and, of course, the capital spending is 7 per cent smaller. That's the reality in which local authorities, other providers on the ground and ourselves have to work, but that doesn't mean we shouldn'tgive up on working cleverer withregional partnerships, pooled funds, in order to make a difference to people's lives.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Plaid Cymru has long put the case for training and recruiting 1,000 extra doctors in Wales, but, given British Medical Association estimates on the numbers of just GPs that we need in the coming years, maybe we've underestimated the figure. Do you think it's time for Plaid Cymru to look at that 1,000 doctors figure and review it upwards, and what is your Government's assessment of the number of doctors we'll need over the next, say, 10 years, and how many of those we'll need to train in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the question. We will continue to discuss not just doctor recruitment and doctor numbers, but all of our healthcare professionals and how they work together. I think it's a mistake to simply look at one group of professionals in isolation to others, as we progressively talk—[Interruption.]—as we progressively talk about, for example, changing the way in which hospitalservices work, moving more care to becomelocal, as work progresses within local healthcare clusters, as we have GPs working in different numbers with different groups of professionals. So, we need to constantly look at and review the numbers of people we wish to train and recruit within our healthcare system, and, of course, doctors play a hugely important role within our healthcare system.
The creation of Health Education and ImprovementWales has been a deliberate choice that we have made, based on a well-understood review, to bring more intelligence to the numbers of different healthcare professionals we need to recruit andwe need to train. That is why Health Education and Improvement Wales will come into being in April of next year, and I look forward to having a more rounded conversation about all of the differenthealthcare professionals we will need to continue to have in a well-functioning and high-quality compassionate national health service.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Okay. I didn't hear a number there. We're sitting quite close to each other; I'd have thought you would have heard that I asked specifically about doctors, not other health professionals, in this particular question. And thank you very much for pointing out the fact that doctors do play an importantrole within the NHS. If it is the case that you don't know how many additional doctors specifically we're going to need, it's no wonder that we are facing such a workforce planning crisis here in Wales. I was preparedto admit perhaps we'd got it wrong and that we need far more than 1,000 doctors. We need a minimum of 1,000. We need a minimum of 5,000 nurses. We have shortages, you're quite right, across the workforce. That's why we need to increase student numbers across theNHS workforce, why we need a new centre for medical training in Bangor, why dentists and pharmacists, incidentally, are saying to me 'Can we have some more training places in the north too, becausewe need them?' Figures published by the BBC last month showed that in this financial year we're seeing more people leave the NHS than are joining, leaving us with around 150—250, excuse me—fewer staff. Will you admit that we're going backwards?

Vaughan Gething AC: We have real and significant challenges, and it's pointless to pretend that we don't. I regularly say that, both in this Chamber, in private conversations with healthcare professionals, withAssembly Members, and in arenas where I give speeches and answer questions.And I think it's really importantto be consistent and to be mature about this in the way I approach my job. That's why I won't engage in an artificial search for numbers, because we have to understand what we are going to expect from our healthcare system and how we expect it to behave. The parliamentaryreview, for example, will help us and set challenges for us about the future way in which we expect health and care to be delivered. Obviously, then, the choices that we make in theGovernment about the future health and care strategy moving forward will affect the numbers of healthcare professionals that we need. And that's why I don't want to get tied down into one single group of professionals as opposed to others. And I deliberately answered your question in that way. We could have a bit of back and fore andlook at the semantics between us if we wanted to. I don't think that's particularly useful. I'm much more interestedin having a proper, grown-up conversationabout the future of the national health service, it's intertwined relationship with social care and other partners as well. And that must be the right way to behave, not just in theChamber, but in the way that I go about my business.
And when we think about, for example, the way in which we are making real progress with the range of recruitment challenges, we're investing more than ever before in nurse recruitment, more midwives are being recruited, and we have an at least 91 per cent fillrate in our GPs. And the First Minister indicated yesterday that I will update this place on the continued progresswe've made in that area in thecoming days. So, there is real progress being made, but there are real challenges. I would much rather be honestabout that rather than engage in banter in the Chamber anda search for numbers that may not exist in the robust way in whichthey could and should do if we're serious about the future ofthehealth service.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Llywydd, earlier you challenged acolleague of mine to come to a question;perhaps youcouldchallenge the Minister to come to an answer.
Let's try oneperhaps on which we can agree. Another worry for staffing is our departure from the European Union. A British Medical Association survey suggests that 45 percent of EU doctors working in the UK are considering leaving—another reason perhaps to upgrade our 1,000 doctors figure. But, with this threat to the NHS workforce, I would imagine that you would want as much of a say as possible on the terms of leaving the European Union. Now, in the Houses ofParliament last night, all bar one ofLabour's MPs failed to back a Plaid Cymru amendment calling for the Assembly and otherdevolved Parliaments to have a say in the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. Do you share my bitter disappointment at that and do you share my fear thatthat doesn't bode well forgettingthe right, for example, to have our own NHS work permit system here in Wales in order to address our own NHS workforce needs?

Vaughan Gething AC: We've set out the position of this Government inrelation to Brexit; we've set out the position that this Government takes in relation to wantingto have a more grown-upconversationwith the United Kingdom Government about the realities of Brexit and the damagethat it could do if it's pursued in its currentshambolic form by the UK Government. I make no apologies forstickingtothe policy of thisGovernment and highlightingtheconcerns that we do have, not just on the national health service, but on a wide range of sectors of public life, public service and the economy.
The GeneralMedical Council and the Nursingand MidwiferyCouncil have both indicated the number of reductions inpeople going onto theregisterfrom theEuropeanUnion in the nursing workforce and well-founded fears about the doctor workforce, about people actively considering their future. I'mdetermined to make the case, with the rest of this Government, for a rather more sensible approach to Brexit, and I sincerely hope the United KingdomGovernment finally listens andrecognises reality.

Conservative spokeperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, your retained responsibilities after the reshuffle include research anddevelopment in health and social care, despite having a social care Minister who oversees the work of Social Care Wales. In assessing your budget priorities, you've elected to cut the moneyavailable for that research. Whatcurrent and future research is likelyto becompromised by this decision? Is there an effect on Social Care Wales, who were keen to do someresearch, and will any of your currentresearch partners' own funding becompromised asresult of reduced funding from here?

Vaughan Gething AC: There are two things that I'll say. The first is that we think that we can manage some ofthereduction without impacting on current research activity. It will affect some of our relationships within the United Kingdom architecture around health and care research, but we think that we can manage.But it means that there are things that we may not otherwise be able to do. The challenge, though, comes back to my second point, which we made in committee today. There is no consequence-free choice to make in having trade-offs within departmental budgets and across departments as well. The reality of asignificant and continuingreduction in the real-terms budgetavailable to this place means that budgetreductions arebeing made in areas we'd much rather not do. So, this is just one ofthose areas. It was not a pleasant choice, not achoice that I enjoyed making, but that is the reality of being a Minister in theGovernment at a time of continuing austerity. Isincerely hope that yourcolleague at No. 11 Downing Street sets out a different course for public expenditure for the sake of every single part of the United Kingdom, but I do not hold outsignificant hope for an alternative view for the future.

Suzy Davies AC: I must admit I was sincerely hoping for an answer as to what exactly you are going to cut in terms of research—not necessarily the amount, but which forms of research are now going to lose out. What exactly are we going to not see being done? Which partners are possibly going to lose their funding as a result of our decision? And just one example would have been fine for that.
I'll just move on now to the proposals to move healthservices inthe county borough of Bridgend from Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Boardto Cwm Taf Local Health Board. That would naturally affect social care provision. The Western Bay health and social care programme iscurrently made up of ABMU, as you know, and the three local authorities in the same footprint.
Cwm Taf already provides some mental health cover for ABMU patients, but I think it's pretty unlikely that the whole of Cwm Taf is going to end up in the Western Bay programme. So, what preliminary thoughts have been aired about the relationship between Cwm Taf and the Western Bay partnership, particularly on the imminentquestionof pooled budgets, which of course have to be decided by April next year?

Vaughan Gething AC: Indeed. On pooled budgets, I indicated in healthcommittee today that we need to take a pragmatic view about Bridgend's place in pooled budget arrangements. It would not be sensible for us to require Bridgend to become involved in a pooled budget relationship with Neath Port Talbot and Swansea councils and the ABMU healthboard. At the same time, we are consulting on moving them into the broader Cwm Taf footprint. That is the one area where I will need to take that decision, given the constituencyinterest of the Minister, but it will affect the way in which we now expect Bridgend to be an eastward-facing authority.
There will be a formal consultation process that will start next month. That was agreed with the then Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, and my colleague the new local government Secretary and I still expect that consultation to go ahead next month, as we continue to take practical steps for themove to be made in the Bridgend area.
We'll need to think about what stays exactly the same, and patient flows, and we'll need to think what needs to change in the way that Bridgend will become more part of a partnership withCwm Taf authority when it comes to socialcare. So, there are changes to be made. We think this is the right thing to do, and that's why we've said we're minded to do it, and I look forward to the 12-week consultation and hearing more broadly from the public and of course staff in all of the organisations affected.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that answer. Of course, I understand the rationale behind it. I'm hoping at some point that you'll be able to give perhaps some guidance to Bridgend County Borough Council in this sort of hiatus to ensure that progress on social care isn't jeopardisedin any way, becausethey have been making progress there.
Just finally, we're all aware, of course, of the pressures on the numbers, becauseof the number of GPs that we don't have in Wales. Earlier this month, the out-of-hours service in Bridgend was closed for certain periods over two nights because therewas no local GP to offer the service. During that period, 33 patients from Bridgend contacted the service and had to be referred to the Morriston helplineinstead, which ended up advising four admissions to an accident and emergency department. How much of an issue is it for GPs that they're having to provide out-of-hours cover locally as well as doing their day job? Does it affect where they choose to practice?

Vaughan Gething AC: As you will recall, in the mid 2000s, a change was made to the way the out-of-hours service was structured. So, GPs now opt in and are not required as part of their contract with the national health service to undertake the out-of-hours function. Part of our challenge is understanding how many GPs we need to make the service more stable and secure, and there are challenges across different parts of Wales and the UK in having an adequate number of GPs undertake that service, together with, as we more and more understand, other healthcare professionals.
So, the roll-out of the 111 service across the ABMU area and now into Carmarthen as well is actually really helpful in use and in understanding the different numbers of people who we expect to be there—having the clinical leadership of GPs, of pharmacists, nurse practitioners, and, indeed, the advice that call handlers can give. So, we have understood the need to change our out-of-hours services to make them more robust, to make them more appropriate for peoplerequiring help and support, and I expect the 111 project to roll out across the country, the pace of which is something that I'll need to determine based on the evaluation of the earlier pilot. But I do expect that will give more stability to out-of-hours services not just in Bridgend, but a footprint and a way of working for the rest of the country too.

Health Inequalities

John Griffiths AC: 4. What further steps will the Welsh Government take to reduce health inequalities in Wales? OAQ51278

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. We are determined to do everything that we can to address the unacceptable inequalities in health outcomes between our least advantaged and our most advantaged communities. Reducing inequality is a central ambition of 'Prosperity for All', and that requires us to work in a more integrated and collaborative way within Government and with our partners, with a continued shift towards prevention.

John Griffiths AC: Cabinet Secretary, this morning, a launch took place here of the University of South Wales's report on the social impact of problem gambling. It seems clear that this is increasingly becoming a public healthissue affecting people's health and well-being. There are questions about the location of bookmakers and fixed-odds betting terminals in the most deprived areas geographically, and also the problems around online gambling. It does seem that the gambling industry is targeting the most vulnerable and the susceptibility of people who badly need a financial windfall, whichof course they're very unlikely to get from gambling. In that sort of context, and referring back to what you said earlier in termsof working across Government, what action do you think you might be able to take in conjunction with Welsh Governmentcolleagues to further examine and address these increasingly important issues?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the follow-up question. I recognise the report that was launched this morning and I know that colleagues on the Labour backbenches, including Jayne Bryant, Jane Hutt and Mick Antoniw, were involved in funding that piece of research, which was actually a useful picture for us on the current picture here within Wales, [Inaudible.] broader, UK-wide picture. To be fair to my colleague the Member for Pontypridd, he's been interested in this area before coming into Government, during his time in Government and now as well, and there's a recognition that there's a real public health challenge here as well as the financial challenges that we face, and we should not expect the gambling—. We should not simply leave it to the gambling industry, I think, to behave responsibly, because not everybody does. There's concern not just about fixed-odds betting, but actually the ease with which gambling takes place, including online, where it's much more difficult to regulate behaviour.
There's also a challenge for us about the split in powers between ourselves and the UK Government. We continue to urge the UK Government to take a more realistic approach to this issue, to recognise damage being done within our communities and, in particular, that that damage is most strongly felt within our most deprived communities. So, we'll continue to do what we can do within this Government, bearing in mind the limitations on the powers that we have, but recognising the health impact and other impacts too. I have indicated to your colleague Jayne Bryant that I'd be happy for the backbench Members who sponsored that report to meet with relevant policy officials to have an understanding of the work that is already being done as we continue to address this problem issue that will not go away quickly.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Cabinet Secretary, a year on, the chief medical officer issued a report on the persistent and growing gap in life expectancy between those living in our most and least deprived communities in south-east Wales. He also commented on research by Public Health Wales that said that investing in the prevention of adverse childhood experiences, such as exposure to alcoholism and drug use, can reduce the number of smokers and drug users in the future, providing long-term health and cost benefits. What plans does the Welsh Government have to address the problem of adverse childhood experiences to reduce health inequalities in Wales, please?

Vaughan Gething AC: This is a significant policy priority for this Government. We've agreed between three different Government departments to fund an ACEs hub to try and understand the impact of stacked adverse childhood experiences on individuals and families in their communities. It isn't just a funding approach; it's a policy and action approach as well. It's why I'm proud that this Government has led the way on controls on tobacco, on trying to improve our smoking cessation services, and, indeed, there are the continued efforts of this Government to try and reduce harmful drinking with, as you know, the proposals this Government has to introduce a minimum unit price for alcohol.
But this is all tied up with a broader approach, and I think about the launch of the Living Well, Living Longer programme that took place in the local government Cabinet Secretary's constituency a few years ago. This is a programme that is bearing real results and shows a different way of trying to work alongside people, having a less medicalised approach in trying to encourage people who are at risk to attend a setting, often outside something like a GP practice, making good use of healthcare support workers, and that's showing a real benefit and identifying potential risks that people are carrying as well as identifying undiagnosed and uncontrolled ill health as well. So, there are a whole range of issues, and ACEs are one of them, in which we encourage people to take more control over their own lives and make different choices. There will not be a single intervention this Government can take, but a range of them and an understanding of not just what we choose to do, but how we help the public to make different choices for themselves to lead to better outcomes.

Question 5[OAQ51282] was withdrawn. Question 6, Suzy Davies.

Cwm Taf Local Health Board

Suzy Davies AC: 6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on plans to incorporate the Bridgend County Borough Council area into the Cwm Taf health board? OAQ51274

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. The then Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government and, I recently confirmed, this Government, intends to consult on the proposal that health provision across the Bridgend council footprint should in future be made by Cwm Taf Local Health Board. We continue to work closely with Bridgend council and both health boards on taking this matter forward.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for your answer on that. The previous Cabinet Secretary will remember that it was quite a bruisingprocess going through the south Wales programme changes and, of course, Cwm Taf lost emergency and paediatric services at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital while they were retained at the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend. Now, I've just had confirmation that there's no planned service reduction at the Princess of Wales Hospital in terms of consultant-led emergency services and in-patient children services, but I'd really like your commitmentto that status quo as well. What I'm slightly more concerned about is that Cwm Taf seem to have no knowledge of Maesteg Community Hospital and is not prepared to make any specific comment on its future. I'm wondering whether you're able, without setting any hares running, to confirm today that you will speak to Cwm Taf about Maesteg and perhaps fill them in on a little bit of information about how important this hospital is.

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm happy to confirm that the change in the footprint arrangements should not, of itself, make any changes to the way that services are provided, or, indeed, patient flows or the innovation that is already taking place—for example, the federation taking place between GPs in Bridgend and the innovations that are taking place within Cwm Taf.
Whatever happens with the future, each health board, with its partners, must look at what it does and why, and there is absolutely no reason to raise questions over any particular healthcare facility simply as a result of changing the footprint. Any and all other changes to services, or any reforms thattake place, must involve a proper conversation with staff and the public, and this change in the footprint is absolutely no reason to cast doubt on any of the current facilities.

Vikki Howells AC: Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you will be aware tha,t a few weeks ago, Cwm Taf health board and their partners Rocialle and 1000 Lives Wales won the collaboration award at this year's Made in Wales Awards for their development of a pack aimed at speeding up clinical responses to sepsis. Will you offer Cwm Taf and its partners congratulations on this significant achievement? Do you agree with me that any proposed changes in the footprint would enable Cwm Taf to strengthen its partnership working and its delivery of innovative healthcare interventions?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes I do, and I've noted with interest the progress that Cwm Taf has made with Rocialle. Again, part of our challenge is for the health service to have a more grown-up relationship with partners in the independent sector without compromising the values of the service, but actually looking at how we can deliver real improvement. Sepsis, as we know, is a big killer, so I'm really looking forward to seeing more on what could be done. I think, actually, Bridgend will benefit in this sense from, as I say, the innovations that are already taking place in Cwm Taf. They should be easy to roll out into the Bridgend area as well, as well as understanding what we could and should do to roll out successful innovation in every part of our service nationwide. So, I do look forward to the continued work.
There's more for us to hear on this particular innovation in the coming month, actually, as we have more coming out about the peer review on acute deterioration. So, I'm more than happy to add my congratulations to Cwm Taf and their partners.

Dai Lloyd AC: The Cabinet Secretary will naturally be aware that planning in the health sector is a long-term matter, and that will include the number of beds in Bridgend hospital, for example, and the plans under way by the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg health board more generally. So, can I ask what discussions you have had to ensure the continuation of services for patients there?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm happy to reiterate the comments that I made earlier to Suzy Davies about patient flows and about the way in which services are planned and provided. This should not interrupt the way in which health provision is already taking place. That needs to take account of what is already in place and discussions that have already happened. I've met with the previous chair of Cwm Taf and the chair of ABMU. I've met with the chief executives at the same time as well, and I've also had a meeting with the newly appointed chair of Cwm Taf. That's actually very encouraging—the fact that all of the organisations involved are taking a very straightforward approach to making sure that if this change takes place, it is done as smoothly as possible, but also having a proper understanding of the current services that are in place that different partners will then have to run and manage, including, of course, the point that Suzy Davies makes about reforming new partnerships between Bridgend and a new health board.
So, I expect that continued work to take place. I will, of course, be meeting with the two chairs over the coming weeks and months again, and I expect the regular and fruitful conversations that are taking place between the leaderships of the health boards and Bridgend County Borough Council to continue to take place.

Emergency Care

Darren Millar AC: 7. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the Welsh Government's plans for improving emergency care in Wales? OAQ51258

Vaughan Gething AC: We remain committed to improving emergency health services across Wales. I have made clear to health boards my expectation for improved performance, particularly as we approach the winter period. I have, of course, made a statement about preparations for the forthcoming winter today to coincide with the launch of this winter's Choose Well campaign.

Darren Millar AC: I'm afraid your statement, Cabinet Secretary, is woefully inadequate, because the one health board that you are directly responsible for is the worst-performing health board in terms of its emergency care and its performance against the Welsh Government's own four-hour emergency target. In fact, my local hospital, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, is the worst-performing hospital in Wales against that target, with just over 66 per cent of patients actually getting in and out of that particular emergency department within four hours. If you need to show leadership,and I believe that you do, you need to put your own house in order in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board.

Vaughan Gething AC: We recognise that the performance in some parts of our system is not acceptable. We've actually invested a significant amount of capital in providing a new A&E unit within Glan Clwyd. And there's a challenge for us about understanding not just the nature of demand, but also what we need to do outside of hospital with our social care system and the clinical leadership that needs to exist within each of those areas and across the health board.
This is the challenge that has been set for that health board. They understand very well the challenge. They understand that I do not find their current performance acceptable. I have met directly with the chair and the chief executive to reiterate my expectation that the unacceptable performance will not continue. And the challenge—[Interruption.] And the challenge for all of us is what answers we can put in place and understanding why a more successful picture is painted in different parts of the country with broadly the same conditions.
What we're trying to do with the Royal College of Emergency Medicine—of course, the current vice-president of Wales is based within Wrexham—is to understand whether can we get through this winter with a sustained improvement in performance, because, actually, within north Wales what we see is a regular going up and down; there isn't a consistent picture of performance and improvement.
What gives me encouragement about north Wales and its ability to get into a different place in the future is not simply the commitments that have been given to me within the health board, but actually the fact that the ABMU health board has seen a significant improvement itself that has been sustained in the second half of this year. But I don't pretend it is as it should be. I don't pretend it's acceptable, and I expect to face more questions in this place until performance does improve and is sustained.

The Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013

Gareth Bennett AC: 8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the health impact of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013? OAQ51277

Vaughan Gething AC: The landmark active travel Act is an important step towards helping to reduce traffic congestion and improve air quality and, indeed, the nation’s health. Early implementation of the Act is progressing but the change in travel behaviour needed to achieve the long-term health impact we seek will take time to realise.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks for the answer. Given the high levels of obesity in Wales, I think that active travel is a very important tool in getting better public health outcomes. Now, I believe that departmental responsibility for implementing active travel has now shifted from the health department to the economy department. I wonder what are your reflections on the reasons for that, and how do you think this changewill impact on the public health outcomes?

Vaughan Gething AC: It's not my job to reflect on the reasons for a change in responsibilities; that's a matter for the First Minister, of course, as it should be. The challenge for all of us as Ministers is actually how we continue to work effectively across the Government. 'Prosperity for All' is a proper attempt at trying to get the Government to work more effectively across the different departments to make sure we're part of one Government, not simply representing a silo within Government—but also to work with partners, because delivering active travel isn't about what the Government does on its own. There's a role for local authorities and a role for other actors, Sustrans being one, about actually how we educate the public to undertake different options for travel.
There are many people in this room who are atypical workers in so many ways—we don't have a normal job—but for people who do get into their cars to undertake short journeys, and people who do put their children in cars for short journeys to do the school run, there's a challenge there about changing societal behaviour and expectation. So, active travel and the Act itself are part of the equipment we have to try and deliver that change in culture and behaviour, but it does require a range of people to be part of that conversation in trying to change people's attitude and their behaviour. Ultimately, we should then see a benefit to the health of the nation.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. Questions to the Counsel General—Postponed to 22 November

Items 3 and 4 have been postponed.

5. Topical Questions

That brings us to our next item, the topical questions. The first question is from Simon Thomas.

Borth Zoo

Simon Thomas AC: 3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on action taken to protect wild animals in Borth zoo near Aberystwyth, in light of the death of two of its wild cats? 62

Lesley Griffiths AC: Ceredigion County Council is investigating the escape of the lynx and the death of a second lynx linked to the zoo to establish whether there have been any breaches of the operating licence. While inquiries are ongoing it would be inappropriate for me to comment further on this matter.

Simon Thomas AC: I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for attempting to answer the question at least, but of course these events have created a great deal of concern to many people in the area and, more broadly, to people who care for animals and their welfare at zoos. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the Government has been in contact with the county council over this period? What discussions and what steps have been taken? For example, did the Government approve the steps taken by the county council in this case and more broadly with the position of the zoo? It’s clear that there’s something amiss when a wild animal can escape and another dies because of its handling. Are we therefore in a position to look at national regulations that govern organisations such as this to ensure that people who run zoos do have the appropriate skills, but also that the equipment is suitable for the animals kept there?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I too am very concerned about both of these incidents. Officials have been in frequent contact with Ceredigion County Council. The decision to dispatch the animal was taken by the county council along with Dyfed-Powys Police, officials from Welsh Government and also the chief veterinary officer. There are several issues that I think need to be looked into very carefully around the licence. At the moment, there is a specialist veterinary inspectionbeing undertaken. That should conclude today. Again, I've asked my officials to keep in contact and to brief me as soon as we've had that information. We don't want to second-guess what's going to happen, but I think it is very important that we look at all the facts here.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for everything that you've said, but I have to say that I was particularly horrified about the events that followed the escape. I'm particularly concerned that the lynx was killed when, in my opinion, it could have been trapped. I looked at the traps that were used and there is criticism about that—about the fact that they weren't appropriate and that they could have been better all round, because the animal had to crouch down rather than walk into the traps that were put out to capture it live. I wonder whether questions will be raised about that process. I was then absolutelyhorrified to hear that an animal in capture was killed because of inexperience in handling and moving those animals. So, all of this, I suppose, leads to an obvious question, and that is: when licences are being issued, whether there is consideration, at least, about the experience of the staff as well as the facilities in which those animals are going to be held. Also, I would support what Simon Thomas has said about whether we need to look at reviewing this whole system and the wider issues around that, and whether licences are being given too easily, in some cases, in the name of conservation, when actually sometimes the ultimate aim is making money.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As I said to Simon Thomas, I share many of your concerns and his concerns in relation to this incident—or two incidents. If I could just say a bit about how licences are given. If there is an application for a licence, a zoo would be inspected by a team. That would include at least one or two inspectors that are on the Secretary of State's list. We do have input. Obviously, licences are devolved to Wales, however this is a system that was set up back in the 1970s. But we do have, as a Government, input into that list via the Animal and Plant Health Agency. Once the licence has been applied for, that's who it would be inspected by: at least one inspector from that list. They could be vets or they could be inspectors who have been nominated by the Secretary of State after a request by a local authority. Formal inspections are also undertaken before a licence is renewed or if there is a significant change to a licence,but I absolutely agree that we need to review the process that we have. I also wanted to add that Ceredigion County Council's decision to authorise the humane destruction of the animal on 10 November was an operational one, which was taken after the receipt of expert advice based on the level of risk to members of the public rising from moderate to severe.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The next question—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Allegations of Bullying within the Welsh Government in 2014

Andrew RT Davies AC: 2. Will the First Minister confirm whether he was aware of allegations of bullying within the Welsh Government in 2014, given that his response to a written question in November 2014 indicated that no allegations had been made? 63

Carwyn Jones AC: I have nothing to add to the answers I gave yesterday, and I reiterate the invitation that I made then.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm grateful for the answer you gave yesterday, First Minister, which did acknowledge that allegations had been made and had been dealt with, as you indicated in First Minister's questions. I would seek greater clarity on that acknowledgement by this question today, and I would be interested to know when the allegations were first brought to your attention that the former Minister Leighton Andrews and the senior special adviser Steve Jones have indicated—specifically indicated. I would be grateful to understand who investigated those allegations and also what conclusions and, importantly, what actions were taken either by you or by someone you delegated to deal with any subsequent follow-up points that were required from the report that they collated.

Carwyn Jones AC: As a said, I have nothing to add to the answers I've already given, but I do again, of course, reiterate the invitation that was made yesterday, if anyone wishes to come forward with further information.

Jenny Rathbone AC: First Minister, is it possible to clarify how many people have raised concerns about bullying within the Government since you took office in 2009?

Carwyn Jones AC: I didn't take office in 2005, but nevertheless—[Interruption.] You said 2009. I beg your pardon. In terms of the answer to the question, many of those will be human resources issues, which the Permanent Secretary will be better placed to answer.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Can I raise a point of order?

Well, say it quickly, before I—

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'd be grateful if the Llywydd could give some direction as to exactly the point of asking questions when you do not elicit an answer from the Cabinet Secretary on specific matters that are of great public interest and a matter of public interest in that they've been on the record for some time and they relate to specific instances that are in the direct control of the First Minister. I would be grateful for what clarity you can give as to the purpose of that.

That's not a point of order, and the First Minister has answered your question.

Darren Millar AC: Llywydd, can I raise a point of order, please?

No. Moving on to the—

Darren Millar AC: My question is directly—

I'm moving on to the next—[Interruption.] I'm moving on to the next question—Jane Hutt.

Aston Martin in St Athan

Jane Hutt AC: 1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the warning from Aston Martin yesterday that its investment in St Athan could be at risk as a result of a Brexit no-deal? 65

Alun Davies AC: The Welsh Government agrees with Aston Martin that a 'no deal' represents a risk to business. However, the company has not indicated any risk to the investment in St Athan, which is progressing at pace.

Jane Hutt AC: I'm very encouraged by that response. I recently visited Aston Martin in St Athan to view progress on turning the super hangar into a production plant with Welsh Government support for the company's new luxury DBX model, creating 750 highly skilled jobs as well as £60 million-worth of contracts benefiting Wales, but I still say I'm concerned that this significant investment could now be at risk. Will you ensure that the evidence that Aston Martin gave to the select committee in Westminster is taken into account in the Welsh Government Brexit negotiations with the UK Government, demonstrating, as Aston Martin said yesterday, that a 'no deal'Brexit could be semi-catastrophic for car manufacturing in Wales? Could we ask the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport to meet with Aston Martin to update us and get those reassurances that you are giving this afternoon, Cabinet Secretary, that this will not have an adverse impact on their development in St Athan?

Alun Davies AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government is in constant communications with Aston Martin regarding this investment and the support that the Welsh Government can provide to the company to secure the investment and the maximum benefit from it, but, certainly, the Cabinet Secretary will, of course, have heard your comments and will continue to bear that in mind as he meets and supports Aston Martin.
Can I say, Llywydd, on a wider basis, that the Member for the Vale of Glamorgan has worked very hard to support and sustain this investment?She and I both understand theimportance of this investment to the St Athan enterprise zone and we understand the importance of retaining free and unfettered access to the single market, and it is that objective that continues to guide the policy and approach of theWelsh Government with regard to Brexit. I think all of us raise our hands in horror at the way in which the UK Government is failing to deal with this most important issue.

Steffan Lewis AC: I thank the Member for the Vale of Glamorgan for raising this important question. Obviously, the automotive sector is of crucial importance to Wales, and the stark warning issued by Aston Martin underlines just how important it is for Wales to have a direct voice in the separation negotiations with the EU, and, indeed, underlines the need for this country to have a say and a vote on the final Brexit deal. Of course, having that, if nothing else, would give us leverage, politically, in order to prioritise the automotive sector as well as other industries.
So, can the Cabinet Secretary therefore explain to me why, last night in Westminster, on a matter of a vote on giving this Parliament a say on the final Brexit deal, far from standing up for Wales, his pals in the palace couldn't be bothered to walk through the lobbies for Wales?

Alun Davies AC: Llywydd, I don't wish to spend the Chamber's time this afternoon giving the Plaid Cymru spokesperson a lecture on the nature of devolved decision making—I'm surprised that Plaid Cymru don't understand that—however, let me say this: this Welsh Government has ensured that Welsh voices are represented and we will continue to provide a strong voice for Wales, standing up for Welsh interests, ensuring that the United Kingdom Government understands exactly what the needs of Wales are as we move through this process. And this Welsh Government will always continue to put the needs of Wales first, second and third.

Neil Hamilton AC: Can I first of all welcome the Cabinet Secretary to his new responsibilities and congratulate him on his promotion?
In relation to Aston Martin, is this not one of the most absurd aspects of project fear? The evidence that was given yesterday by Mark Wilson, the finance director of Aston Martin, that production could stop at Aston Martin if there were no type-approval certificates granted for European cars or British cars after Brexit is not likely to be realised. Aston Martin exports 600 cars a year to the European Union. Germany alone exports to Britain 820,000 cars a year—that's 14 per cent of the entire car production in Germany, a third of all cars sold in the UK, and amounts to€27 billion a year. There were 2.6 million cars registered in the UK in 2015—86 per cent of them produced outside the United Kingdom. It is absurd to predict that the type-approval certification system will come to an absolute stop if there's no deal on the future trade arrangements between Britain and the rest of Europe, because that could, actually, be massively to the advantage of domestic producers, if no foreign cars could be sold in the United Kingdom. This is not a scenario that we need detain us for a single second.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the leader of UKIP Wales for his kind remarks. However, I won't let that put me off. [Laughter.] I'm sure the management of Aston Martin are grateful to the Member for his lecture on their business and their business interests. I'm sure they will be very grateful to him for the time he's taken to do that, and I'm sure they will pay full note to the remarks he's made this afternoon.Perhaps the Member has been spending too much time reading the tweets from Russian robots to realise exactly what is going on in this economy and exactly what is going on in a failed Brexit exercise where the United Kingdom Government is failing to represent and stand up for the interests of Wales, the people of the United Kingdom and is failing to deliver any sort of Brexit at all.

Mick Antoniw AC: Cabinet Secretary, isn't it the problem that it is not just the economic threat to Wales of no deal, but also the economic threat of the type of deal that we might actually end up with the Government negotiating, and that the offer by the Government recently to the Westminster Parliament of a parliamentary vote, on a 'take it or leave it' basis, is a totally meaningless gesture, and it is also one that actually undermines parliamentary democracy? Isn't the real crux of the problem that we've got a rudderless and impotent Conservative Government with impotent leadership and we desperately need a general election and for Jeremy Corbyn to be the next Prime Minister?

Alun Davies AC: I agree with my friend from Pontypridd, but let me say this: we have a UK Government that is in thrall of the right-wing press, who spend half their time avoiding paying British tax and then lecturing the British Government on what British interests are, and in thrall of groups of backbenchers who are at war with each other. They are unable to form a policy, they are unable to form a programme, they are unable to command votes in the House of Commons, they are unable to even attend votes in the House of Commons. They're a Government running away from their Parliament, and the sooner we have a general election and Jeremy Corbyn leading a Labour Government, the better for us all.

Andrew RT Davies AC: We've had the political rant from the Cabinet Secretary, but let's get back to reality—[Interruption.] Let's get back to reality. And I do congratulate him on his appointment to the Cabinet.
It was only some two months ago that Aston Martin announced a £500 million deal on a trade mission to Japan. That will add a significant boost to the footprint of the factory in the Vale of Glamorgan, which I look down on every day from where we live in the village of St Hilary. I welcome that announcement and I welcome all who have been involved in it, working from the Welsh Government point of view and the UK Government point of view. It shows, when Governments work together, what can be achieved. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary, or the Government, I should say, made of that £500 million trade deal that Aston Martin announced on 31 August this year, when they accompanied the Prime Minister to Japan, about the massive benefits that will have on the footprint that they are building in St Athan?

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the leader of the Welsh Conservatives for his kind remarks. But I have to say to him that the Member for the Vale of Glamorgan has worked hard on this, and his contribution—the leader of the Welsh Conservatives—to this has been less than nothing. I have to say—[Interruption.] I have to say to the leader of the opposition that the economic policies that he has consistently supported—[Interruption.] He has consistently supported—. I'm going to continue—I've got the microphone, so, you know, you're wasting your time.
The economic policies that the leader of the opposition has consistently supported throughout his time in office in this place have been shown to be wrong. What we've seen from the United Kingdom Government in terms of their approach on austerity has been reduced growth, reduced spending. We've seen the economies of the European mainland and the eurozone move ahead, whilst the United Kingdom economy is stuck in the slow lane.
The reality is that the investment in St Athan, the Aston Martin investment, is going to continue to be supported by the Government of Wales. We are going to continue to support and stand up for Welsh interests throughout the process of Brexit, we will be continuing to put the interests of Wales first and we will continue to put the interests of the Welsh economy first.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.
Point of order arising from questions—Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Earlier this afternoon, Llywydd, the leader of the opposition asked the First Minister whether he still stood by the reply he gave to Darren Millar in 2014 that there had been no allegations of bullying, or whether he had misled the Assembly. Now, the First Minister refused to respond to that question, so we have complete lack of clarity now as to whether the Assembly was misled, which is a very, very serious matter indeed. So, can I ask you, Llywydd, that you request that the First Minister return to the Chamber this afternoon so that he can address that question of whether this Assembly was misled, on a very serious matter, and if he's not prepared to address it himself, would he refer it to a third party so we can have an independent investigation of this matter?

That is most probably not a point of order, but your comments are on the record. The content of the First Minister's answer—and I'm sorry that he's not here for this point of order—but the content of his answer is a matter for the First Minister. But reflecting on this afternoon, then some ministerial answers may have been too long this afternoon, and some may have been too short.

6. 90-second Statements

I now move on to 90-second statements—Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. We're not very good in Wales at celebrating some of our most famous sons and daughters. Often they are better known outside Wales than inside, and this must change. Gareth Jones is celebrated in Ukraine for being one of the few journalists to expose the Holodomor in the years of 1931-32—Holodomor, death by starvation, Stalin's artificial famine, which led to the death of an estimated 7 million to 10 million Ukrainians. Unlike many of his contemporaries, Gareth Jones shunned the wining and dining provided for journalists in Moscow and went by foot to see for himself. What he saw appalled him. The cover-up appalled him. He wrote about it and exposed it and was condemned by those very same journalists. The famine is now well documented. One survivor wrote:
'The famine was artificial by nature. In our village 500 people died and 750 died in the neighbouring village. My father gave out buckwheat and he was arrested the following day.'
During his March 1933 off-limits walking tour, he witnessed the famine first-hand and reported:
'Everywhere was the cry, "There is no bread. We are dying...We are waiting for death".'
During the famine, around 20 to 25 per cent of the population of Soviet Ukraine was exterminated, including a third of Ukraine's children. When Stalin was told that his orders would result in the death of millions, his response was, 'Who will ever know?' Because of Welsh journalists such as Gareth Jones, we do know.

Motion to Elect a Member to a Committee

The next item on our agenda is a motion to elect a Member to a committee, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally.

Motion NDM6569Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Julie James (Labour) as a Member of the Business Committee in place of Jane Hutt (Labour).

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Formally.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with the Standing Order.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Motion to approve the Assembly Commission's Budget 2018-19

The next item, therefore, is the motion to approve the Assembly Commission’s budget for 2018-19, and I call on Suzy Davies to move the motion on behalf of the Commission.

Motion NDM6564Suzy Davies
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 20.16:
Agrees the budget of the Assembly Commission for 2018-19, as specified in Table 1 of the 'National Assembly for Wales Assembly Commission Budget 2018-19',laidbefore the Assembly on 7 November 2017 and that it be incorporated in the Annual Budget Motion under Standing Order 20.26(ii).

Motion moved.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I move the Commission's budget motion for 2018-19 and ask that it be incorporated into the annual budget motion.
The budget for 2018-19, the third year of this fifth Assembly, is a budget—. In that budget, the Commission is seeking £56.1 million, and it's made up of three components: £35.5 million for Commission services; £16.2 for the remuneration board's determination; and £4.4 million for non-cash budgets.This budget will ensure that the Commission can address the challenges that face the Assembly imminently and in the longer term, and properly support the delivery of our strategic goals, while being mindful of the wider public sector financial position.
The Commission exists to support the Assembly and Assembly Members, and we recognise that the pressures on Assembly Members are greater than ever, with a demanding range of work for committees and Plenary, intensified by further constitutional change, tax-raising powers and managing the exit from the EU. The legislative, financial and scrutiny responsibilities of our very small number of elected Members—there are just 44 of us, or maybe 46, who are able to do this work—are unique and paramount, so it is critical that we maintain the delivery of excellent services to support Members as you discharge those responsibilities.
It's not just the immediate pressures. The Llywydd has set out the Commission's plans to make our Parliament fit for the future, giving young people a voice in our democracy, communicating effectively with the public, and fulfilling our statutory duty to enable the Assembly to undertake its legislative and scrutiny work, including taking forward work to address the capacity of the Assembly.
Wales needs good government, and good government can only be delivered when it is improved, scrutinised and held to account by an effective parliament. We have new legislative powers in this area. The Commission must do what's necessary to equip this Parliament with the capacity to deliver a strong and sustainable democracy. As you will appreciate, this work is only just beginning. As we move forward, the Commission will continue to consider the budget implications and come back to the Assembly for your scrutiny by the Finance Committee, this annual debate, and subsequently through Public Accounts Committee and any other forms that are reasonable and suggested to us.
Returning to the budget we're considering today, I would like to thank the Finance Committee for its scrutiny. As a publicly funded organisation, the Commission must consistently demonstrate that it uses resources efficiently and effectively. The committee's scrutiny is an important part of that, so we approach the process with the aim of being clear, open and transparent, and that scrutiny helps the Commission get better at meeting that aim.
The committee made 10 recommendations, all of which we addressed positively in our response. In our budget strategy, we provided indicativefigures for the remainder of this fifth Assembly. The strategy, published in 2016, set the context for the commission's budget for the remaining years of the fifth Assembly. The commission, having reviewed and further scrutinised this strategy, agrees that it is still justified. But it also recognises that, in the remaining years of this Assembly, the commission's budget should not be in excess of any changes to the Welsh block grant. The commission accepts that any future budget request must be proportionate to the changes in the Welsh block, and, indeed, has sought to maintain such proportionality in previous years, even at times of heightened ambition. In formulating future budget requests, the commission will need to take account of any variation in the Welsh block as a consequence of new tax-raising powers, and deal with proportionality, taking that into account.
The draft budget did include a request for a ring-fenced sum of money to be used for developing potential new accommodation needs, only to be drawn down if necessary. This is in line with improving transparency and advising the Assembly of any high-cost decisions that might, but not definitely, arise in the forthcoming year. Two of the Finance Committeerecommendations relate to this issue, and the committee has asked instead that we submit a supplementary budget to separately present the case for any such investment, should the commission determine that we wish to pursue this. Therecommendations are agreed, and we have amended our budget accordingly.
Three of therecommendationsare linked to commission staff resources, information has been requested about the increase in staff numbers over the past 10 years, and on benchmarking against other legislatures. Arecommendation was made that there should be no change to the number of full-time equivalent posts in the Assembly in 2018-19. Going forward, within the agreed established ceiling, the commission will endeavour to maintain effective levels of service in support of Members and public engagement. And, to help with that, the commission is currently undertaking a capacity review—an exercise that began in mid September—and the committee has requested to see the results of that exercise in a formal paper, which we have agreed.
Three otherrecommendationsreferred to the budgetapproach to prioritisation under transparency, and we agreed those as well.
So, finally, I want to assure Members that we will continue to work in a way that delivers value for money, and to strive to be as efficient as possible, whilst providing all Members with a high-quality service tosupport us all, effectively, in our roles.
Thank you.

I call on Simon Thomas to speak on behalf of the Finance Committee.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I thank Suzy Davies for opening this debate this afternoon, and also for appearing before the Finance Committee, so that this draft budget could be scrutinised, and responding so positively to the recommendations of the Finance Committee. It was good to hear that the recommendations were accepted, and I’m looking forward to co-operating with the Commission in the way that further information is presented, and in the way that the future budget is scrutinised.
I just want to start by explaining one point that is important in this context. In responding to our report in a letter, the Commissioner, Suzy Davies, does say that the draft budget was proposed in the context of the five-year budget strategy—which has just been referred to—that was previously presented, scrutinised and recommended. I think it is important to note that the Finance Committee did not recommend any strategy in terms of funding. Indeed, what we said in our report last year was the following:
‘due to the current uncertainty in many areas, it would be inappropriate to provide a comment on the spending plans beyond 2017-18.’
So, I think it is very clear that we only approve the budget per year, and so I want to explain that, because I think that has caused some of the disagreement that has stemmed from some items in the budget.
Having said that, we need to be clear that the budget before us does ask for an increase that is above inflation, and above the expected increase in the Welsh block grant. Whilst we have stopped short of recommending changes to the requested increase for the next financial year, the committee firmly believes that, for the remaining years of this Assembly, the Commission’s budget should not be in excess of any changes to the Welsh block grant.
Against a backdrop of continued cuts to public services, we believe it is hard to justify any increase in the Assembly’s spending. As an Assembly we must recognise that any increase given to the Commission—in our names—is taken from the Welsh consolidated fund, and this impacts on other public services in Wales. So, I welcome the fact, or the way in which the Commissioner has set out the way in which she and the Commission, over the next few years, will deal with a very difficult issue for everyone in Wales in terms of the budget.
Another key recommendation in our report, as has been mentioned, was the removal of the request for £700,000 to progress a planning application for a new building. Should funding be required for that, it should be requested through a future supplementary budget or budget motion. I am pleased that the Commission has agreed this recommendation. We’ve also recommended that we need more details for every Member and every group in this place before the Commission asks for more funding for a new building. I think that a new building, or the possibility of that, needs to be discussed fully, and every Member needs to have the opportunity to understand the rationale behind that request.
The context of this is that the Commission spent £1.9 million last year on a ground-floor refurbishment—the new committee rooms that you’re familiar with by now. As a committee we struggled to understand why so much money was spent less than a year ago when the possibility of a new building was already being considered—although not by the majority of Assembly Members, I have to say. This refurbishment has been funded mainly from the underspend from the remuneration board determination, and decisions such as this mean that we, as a committee, are taking an additional interest in the way that funding is used.
The use of underspend from the remuneration board determination has been of concern to the committee for some time, and is the basis for a number of our recommendations in the past. We recognise that the Commission has taken on board our previous recommendations, and that the draft budget includes an underspend forecast for the year and details of how the remuneration underspend and other savings may be allocated in-year.
Additionally, as we state in our report, we’re not comfortable that the Commission’s budget relies on a projected underspend to fund priority areas of work, particularly as some of these areas are classed as ‘obligatory’. We question why obligatory requirements are being funded from a possible underspend, rather than being given certainty in the main budget. We remain concerned that this approach to budgeting lacks transparency and clarity. As we mention in our report, we now intend to undertake a short inquiry to establish how other Parliaments budget for spending related to Members’ pay and allowances.
The committee is supportive of the work under way to review capacity within the organisation in order to inform future discussions about the resources needed to deliver the Commission’s priorities. We believe that as part of the review, the Chief Executive and Clerk should ensure that existing resources are maximised, and we look forward to receiving details on the outcome of the review, as has just been promised by the Commissioner. We look forward, therefore, over the next few months, to co-operating with the Commission in order to ensure that the budgeting methods for the future have the broadest possible support in this place.

I call on Suzy Davies to respond.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr. Can I just thank you again, Simon, and the Finance Committee, for your careful consideration of the Commission's budget? I noted your comments about the five-year multi-annual budget, if I can put it like that. It is fair to say that, of course, the Finance Committee knew what we were proposing for the next five years, and of course I'd acknowledgethe point that, at some point, we may need to change those figures in light of changing priorities. The fact that we were able to stick to the figures we gave you last year, I think, is some evidence of the attempt we have made as a Commission to really tighten our corsets rather than loosen them, being, as I said earlier, always mindful of the wider public sector financial position.

Mike Hedges AC: Will you take an intervention?

Suzy Davies AC: By all means.

Mike Hedges AC: Would you not accept that the commission of this Assembly cannot be immune from theausterity that the rest of the public sector in Wales is facing?

Suzy Davies AC: It's certainly not immune to needing to make efficiencies where it possibly can make them, and you'll have noted, being a member of thecommittee, that efficiencies have been made, initially in staffing, and certainly in contracts over the previous years. But we're also in a position, as you heard during my opening remarks, where this Assembly, this parliament, is taking on huge new responsibilities, some of them coming via legislation, and some of them coming throughthe general ambition that we all have for this to be a world-class parliament. I think it is worth pointing out that this budget is 0.35 per cent of the whole of the Welsh block grant. That doesn't mean that it's not worth the most thorough of scrutiny. But as I mentioned earlier, there are just 44 of us to scrutinise the remaining 99.65 per cent of that block grant, and we need the excellent parliamentarysupport to enable us to do that effectively because we are so small in number. For example, legislation takes as much effort and work for 3 million people as it would for 30 million people. And it needs as much scrutiny,whether there are 44 of us or over 100 of us. The fewer of us there are, the greater our call on the central support of the Commission. I'd like to take this opportunity to record my thanks to the staff of the Commission and all the parliamentary supportservices for their dedication and for going that extra mile.
The greatest challenge, I think, for this Commission will be to ensure that the Assembly, charged as it is with greater responsibility, as I mentioned, isproperly equipped to do the job. If you have any complaints about what local government is getting, that is a matter for Welsh Government, and I would like us to use our tiny budget in order to improve parliamentary services to help us scrutinise that Welsh Government budget properly.
Our aim remains to set and maintain high standards during a time of close publicscrutiny and toenhance ourreputation as an international, open, world-class parliamentary institution. On behalf ofthe Llywydd and my fellow Commissioners, I give a full and sincere promise that we do all we can to use our resources, provided by this budget, to ensure that we meet those challenges in the mostefficient way possible.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Female Genital Mutilation—Postponed from 8 November

The next item is a debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21, and I call on Julie Morgan to move the motion.

Motion NDM6528 Julie Morgan,Angela Burns,Dai Lloyd,Joyce Watson,Jenny Rathbone
Supported by Jayne Bryant
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Recognises that female genital mutilation (FGM) is widely practised worldwide and an estimated 2,000 women and girls in Wales are living with the consequences of FGM.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) use every opportunity to raise awareness of this practice;
b) encourage schools to discuss this as part of the Personal and Social Education curriculum and in staff training;
c) raise awareness of this practice among GPs and all medical practitioners; and
d) do all it can to ensure communities most affected receive help and support to tackle the problem.

Motion moved.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch. I think it's very important to start this debate on female genitalmutilation by hearing the voices ofwomen directly affected. So, we're going to start by playing a short clip from the film called A Change hasBegun, which I'd like to warn Members is quite powerful.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

An audio-visual presentation was shown. The transcription in italics below is a transcription of the oral contributions in the presentation.

What is FGM?
I was cut when I was seven.
I was 13 years old.
I was 16 when I was cut.
It was donein the school holiday.
I was nine.
There were 20 of us and I was the oldest with the youngest being two, and she later died.
It was part of our culture; it was part of being who we are.
I was so excited, you know.
For you to come out like a princess.
There was lots of dancing.
We had dancing. 
Singing.
It was a really, really big party.
Because I was so young, I still didn't understand what was going to happen to me.
Then it was time for me to go into the next room.
This woman blindfolded me.
I was thrown on the floor.
I was shaking.
Some women pulled my legs apart and pinned my shoulders down.
And I filled every width of my chest.
I couldn't breathe;I couldn't move.
The woman sat on me and I felt a very sharp cut between my legs. It was so painful.
When they started cutting,I screamed so loud that the women gagged me to stop me from screaming.
I have no words to explain.
The pain I felt that day.
At that pool of blood, that's where every girl was cut.
I can still feel the sensation of it every time I think about it.
They used the same blade on all of us.
My auntie was a cutter.
The women—you see the joy in their faces, knowing that you are now a woman.

Julie Morgan AC: I'd like to thank my colleagues Jenny Rathbone, Joyce Watson, Jayne Bryant, Dai Lloyd and Angela Burns, who can't be here today, for supporting this debate today. I'd also like to thank Jane Hutt for her support on this issue.
Female genital mutilation—the process of cutting or disfiguring young girls and women for non-medical reasons—is anextreme form ofdiscrimination against them. FGM is mostly carried out on young girls some time between infancy and age 15. It causes severe bleeding andhealth issues, including cysts, infections,infertility as well as complications in childbirth and increased risk of newborn death.
There are four categories of FGM, which range in severity, and are harmful procedures carried out for non-medical purposes. Eighty per cent of women have undergone either type 1 female genital mutilation, which is partial or total removal of the clitoris, or type 2, which also includes removal of the labia.

Julie Morgan AC: The statistics on FGM are complex, and there isn't one single point of data, which is something that we are looking for, and which I'll come onto later, but we do know that, from October 2016 to October 2017 in the Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board,203 women were living with FGM who had actually been to see health practitioners. Data from all seven health boards in Wales show that 123 victims needed medical care as a result of FGM, as well as 44 children who were vulnerable to being subjected to FGM,and it is estimated that 2,000 women are living with the effects of FGM in Wales. But, of course, we all know that this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of numbers.
I'm sure everybody in this Chamber knows it is illegal, and it has been for 32 years. The law was strengthened in 2003 to prevent girls travelling abroad to undergo FGM. In October 2015, a mandatory reporting duty to report known FGM in under 18swas brought in. But we're still in a fight to end the practice of FGM. While more cases are being reported, there still has not been a successful conviction in more than 30 years.
But professionals working with victims of female genital mutilation say you can't change culture just with prosecutions. You need education; you need community champions. The wider population here who think it doesn't happen in their back yard must be made aware of FGM too. As well as teachers, doctors, police and social workers, we must educate teaching assistants, health visitors, school secretaries, doctors' receptionists and more. FGM must be talked about widely and in a matter-of-fact way, in the same way that we talk about the health dangers of smoking. It's not an issue that we should tiptoe around, and professionals who are working in this field wanted us to have this debate today, wanted us to be open and to talk about all these issues in an open, matter-of-fact way.
Of course, I know that the Welsh Government is committed to tackling FGM, and I welcome, of course, theViolence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 in whichfemale genital mutilation is included as a form of gender-based violence.At this point, I would like to pay a personal tribute to CarlSargeant, who would, of course, have been answering this debate, for his total commitment and work to eradicate violence against women, and his initiation of this legislation. He saw female genital mutilation as part of the whole problem of violence against women. It is an absolute integral part, as it is a form of gender-based violence. In this Chamber, Carl saidwe should not shy away from tackling culturally sensitive issues, such as FGM, which are not acceptable in our society.
So, in this motion, we call on the Welsh Government to use every opportunity to raise awareness of this practice in schools and among staff and trainee teachers, and I welcome the fact that the Cabinet Secretary for Education wrote to all headteachers in July to seek their assistance in helping eradicate FGM. Teachers have a vital role to play in spotting potential cases where girls may be at risk of FGM, particularly when school holidays are approaching, as girls are often sent to be cut under the guise of visiting family members in countries where FGM is rife.
I know the new curriculum has not yet fully come in, but I would like to see that tackling FGM as part of the sex and relationship education curriculum ismandatory, not optional. So, I don't know whether it would be possible, in the ministerial response, for the Cabinet Secretary to outline whether pupils will be taught about female genital mutilation as part of the health and well-being area of the new curriculum being devolved in Wales, because I think it is absolutely essential that learning about FGM is part of a whole, that it is integrated into the whole of health and well-being.
I would also like to ask if the Cabinet Secretary could tell us when is the healthy relationships expert panel'sreport due to be made public, and can she clarify when detailed planning of the topics included in this part of the curriculum will be carried out. And, in terms of new teacher training programmes, could it be clarified whether female genital mutilation will be specifically taught as a topic?
The work of educating people in communities in which FGM is practised is key, and I'd like to pay tribute to the work of BAWSO, which supports black and ethnic minority women affected by FGM. I believe members of BAWSO have come here today.I have been involved with BAWSO since it was set up in 1995 and they do a huge amount of work offering support to women who have undergone FGM and raising awareness of it. And it is absolutelyvital that the work is done in communities to support people and to try to offer education and understanding within the communities where this may be practiced.
BAWSO have helped set up the Wales FGM forum, and have raised awareness in more than 20 diverse communities here in Wales, and morethan 2,200 professionals have been trained. In the last seven years, they've engaged with 4,350 people and they've offered one-to-one support and communityengagement. BAWSO also runs a very important 24-hour FGM helpline. I think we shouldn't shy away from tackling this issue with communities. I think Carlsaid, when he spoke here in the Chamber, about you have to face up to these culturally sensitive issues, becauseyou can do it and you can do it in a way that condemnsthe practice but doesn't condemn the communities, that makes an effort to understand why people think that this is the right thing to do and to try to change this practice.
So, I feel that it is very important that we've having this debate today, becausewe are actually trying to open up this subject to debateit in public here in the National Assembly for Walesand to show that we recognisethat it is our duty as a National Assemblyand as a Government here in Walesto recognise the harm that this practice does and to do everythingwe can in as sensitivea way as possible to see that it ends. So, I look forward to hearing the other speakers about this issue.

Thank you very much. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Julie Morgan, for proposing this difficult debate, and also for showing the video, becauseI think the video very clearly demonstratesthat most people do not know what FGM is. Therefore, it's very important that we articulate what FGM is so that the public at large is aware of this in order to gather support for stamping it out.
I'd just like to highlight an exhibition that's on at the moment at the national museum for Wales that is being curatedby people linked to the Huggard homelessness charity. It's called 'Who Decides?' and it's questioningwhy it is official curators shouldbe deciding on what is art and what we ought to be looking at, as opposed to ordinarymembers of the public, particularly those who have suffered acutely in their lives, whichis what has brought them to homelessness.
I was extraordinarilymoved by a series of etchings that are in the exhibition, which were chosen by somebody called Helen Griffiths, who wrote, 'I can empathisewith needing to escape reality for a while, away from all the horrible thingsthat have happened'. The images are very graphic in showing how women hold down the girl, and it is women who normallyconduct this horrific operation. But also the last painting is one of the mother then cradling the child after it's had this dreadful thing done to it. I just think that is a really importantway in which it bringsto a much wider audience what female genital mutilation involves.
This is not a new phenomenon. My great aunt was campaigning, along with other feminists, on this in the 1920s and we are still discussing it as opposed to stampingit out. Obviously, a lot has been done, and there's a lot of work being done by some of the diaspora communitiesthat now live in the UK to change attitudes towards this being an appropriate thingto do to your girls. But we need to regard it as somethingakin to polio or smallpox or cholera. This is somethingthat's so horrific. There is absolutelyno benefit whatsoeverin healthterms, and it is just a way of suppressing women and girls' sexuality.
So, as Julie has already mentioned, we know that there are at least 200 women living in the Cardiff and the Valearea who have been the victims of FGM, becauseall women who become pregnantobviously become the focus of the support and the healthcare of the local health board, and I'm very pleased that Cardiff and the Vale has appointed a specialist FGM midwife whose job it is to set up a specialist clinic, which is due to open early next year. I'm very pleased that this clinic is not going to be at the Heath hospital; it's going to be at the Cardiff Royal Infirmary in Adamsdown, which is an appropriate place for it because it is easy for people in the communities involved to access it via local bus services and it is part of the community. So, that is a very good step forward and is absolutely essential, but obviously the work that we really need to be doing is to prevent women and girls from suffering from this abomination in the first place.

Thank you. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for calling me to speak. I’d also like to thank Julie Morgan and other Members for initiating this important debate. I think this is a policy issue that requires a cross-government approach, with the equality and social justice goals of the Welsh Government at the forefront of the action required. So, alongside Julie Morgan,I welcomed the action taken in July by the Cabinet Secretary for Education, who wrote to all schools in Wales highlighting the important role they can play in identifying potential victims and safeguarding them from FGM.
The NSPCC identifies some possible warning signs in a girl who has undergone FGM, such as being unable to cross her legs while sitting on the floor, being in pain or clutching at her body, and going to the toilet more often than usual and spending longer there. But, sometimes, there are no obvious signs as a young girl may be taken abroad over the summer holidays and be subject to FGM—as we saw on the film—to recover before the autumn term. This is known as 'the cutting season'.
This practice keeps FGM hidden and under the radar. The education Secretary has asked schools to be aware of this. I think it would be helpful to know more about the follow-up and monitoring by the Cabinet Secretary of her action to engage schools, particularly in terms of ensuring that staff have the necessary training and tools to help them effectively and confidently assist in addressing this highly sensitive issue. A cross-government response to FGM is vital, but, if we're to tackle this unacceptable abuse against women and girls, it's also vital that we recognise the role of the third sector, especially those who have the evidence, the skills, the cultural understanding and the experience to respond appropriately.BAWSO, as we've all heard, is an all-Wales organisation that has been supporting BME families affected by FGM for over 20 years.
In 2010—as Julie Morgan and Jenny Rathbone have already identified—they initiated the FGM community forum, which covers the Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board with wider membership, including the NSPCC and Welsh Women's Aid. The forum's work has involved conducting surveys of practitioners to find out their level of knowledge of FGM as well as their confidence in supporting victims and survivors, and the forum has also been at the forefront of this campaign for an FGM clinic, as Jenny Rathbone has said—a good step forward, due to open soon, early in the new year.
But I've worked closely with BAWSO and know that their aim is to strengthen communities to take ownership of FGM, as Julie Morgan has said, through education awareness campaigns, in order to tackle this appalling form of abuse and eradicate it.Awareness raising is key.The wall of silence and secrecy that surrounds this topic keeps victims hidden and allows this devastating form of abuse to thrive—and it is abuse, with millions of women affected across 30 countries worldwide. Many of us will have seen the programme on BBC Two last week with Kate Humble looking at south-west Kenya, where FGM is illegal but still deeply rooted in local culture. We witnessed local campaigners like Susan, an FGM survivor, and Patrick, a young man from the community, working tirelessly in the rural Kuria community to raise awareness and rescue young girls and women.
According to the World Health Organization,
'FGM is recognized internationally as a violation of the human rights of girls and women. It reflects deep-rooted inequality between the sexes, and constitutes an extreme form of discrimination against women. It is nearly always carried out on minorsand is a violation of the rights of children.'
To expose it, we must talk about it, we must have a cross-Government response and we must engage with those who are working at the front line. It is for that reason I welcome this debate. We must be guided by those on the front line, like BAWSO, and we must ensure that FGM is a priority for the Welsh Government and all statutory bodies here in Wales.

Joyce Watson AC: First of all, I want to thank Julie for bringing this debate, because if we can't talk about it, then nobody can. If we don't talk about it, nothing gets changed and it forever stays in the darkest recesses of society, let alone people's minds—those who have gone through this and experienced it. I did catch the BBC Two programme last week, and I would encourage people to watch it—Extreme Wives with Kate Humble. It won't make for good watching—anything but—but it will allow people some level of understanding, if they haven't got it, about what it is that we're talking about.
The procedure is, indeed, cruel. It's as cruel as it sounds, and, in my opinion, and that of others I have spoken to, it is surrounded by the misogynistic culture and twisted religious justification for it. Those are not my words—those are the words of women from Africa whom I've met as the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians representative, who were living with this being done to them.
There are a few things worth mentioning. The long-term implications cannot be overstated. Women who have been subjected to FGM are very often, as a result, left incontinent. The result of being left incontinent is that they are also left alone—their husbands leave them because they regard them as unclean. They are left in poverty—abject poverty—to bring up their children on their own. So, not only are they mutilated, and it is mutilation, but they are left destitute as a consequence. The other issue that hasn't been talked about, of course, and it is fairly obvious, is that this is a crime in this country, and there hasn't been a single prosecution. I think not to mention it is to almost do a disservice, so I will mention those things.
It is the case, of course, that culture very often follows people. We do have a fairly large diaspora here, and that is why it particularly affects some communities more than others. We do know that, according to City, University of London research commissioned by the Home Office, approximately 137,000 women and girls in England and Wales are now living with the consequences, as I've described, and around 60,000 girls up to the age of 14 years were born to women who have undergone FGM. Those are pretty shocking figures, and they have to beg the question, and this is where BAWSO comes in: are those, then, going to be replicated, since it is the women who actually carry out FGM on their daughters?
Another thing worth mentioning from that programme is that the people who carry out the cutting get paid for every single person whom they cut. It is worth remembering that, because the poor communities that believe that this is the right thing are actually gathering funds together to send their girls back to them with the most horrific injuries. I think that if anybody ever meets anybody—I've met several people who have gone through this—you'll get a level of understanding about the trauma that never, ever leaves an individual when it is their mother who has sent them to be cut, when you hear about the party that they were expecting and the horror that they experience.
So, I suppose for us here as an Assembly, what we absolutely have to do is make sure that we carry on supporting organisations like BAWSO, who will, in turn, support the women and the children. When you hear of a two-year-old dying as a consequence, I think it brings reality home into this Chamber.

Thank you. Can I now call the leader of the house, Julie James?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to start my contribution to today's debate with a very brief tribute to my colleague and friend the late Carl Sargeant. We all know that Carl was as committed to tackling female genital mutilation as he was to the issue of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence as a whole. As Julie Morgan has already said, he saw FGM as a very clear example of child abuse as well as an issue of power and control over women and girls. He was passionate about getting people talking about this issue and bringing it out of the shadows, as wellas trying to reduce the prevalence of the practice.
He put in place the groups and forums for discussion and decision making in Wales we needed to take FGM seriously and take action in partnership. He established a national strategic leadership group for FGM long before others around the UK had such structures. This allowed projects and initiatives to come forward, like the NSPCC/BAWSO project Voices over Silence, working with young women to make their voices heard on FGM. This project received a UK national midwifery award and is now being used to train professionals across Wales, as well as being taught in schools through the Spectrum programme.
Carl was also very keen to ensure that FGM be a key strand in what eventually became the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. He was adamantthat this had to be the case if the legislation was to be reflective of all communities in Wales, and he did this in the full knowledge that some people did not want to hear about it. He never shied away from difficult subjects but tackled them head on in his own inimitable way, with gentleness, warmth and humour.Carl laid all the foundations for the work I'm about to outline on FGM, and it is all very much part of his lasting legacy.
I also would like to thank Julie Morgan and all of the Assembly Members who brought forward this debate, and I very much welcome the opportunity to set out the Welsh Government's commitment to ending the appalling practice of female genital mutilation. The End FGM European network says that female genital mutilation, or FGM, denies women and girls the rights to physical and mental integrity, to freedom from violence, to the highest possible standard of health, to freedom from discrimination on the basis of gender and to freedom from torture, cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment. I think we all very strongly echo that statement.
FGM is internationally recognised as a violation of women and girls' human rights, directed exclusively at women and girls because of their gender. In 2011, an estimated 170,000 girls and women were living with the consequences of FGM in the UK. It is estimatedthat there are around 140 victims of FGM every year in Wales. I'm watching the progress of an ongoing trial in Woolwich, only the second case of its kind to be brought in the UK under the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Criminal justice is not devolved, as you know, but Welsh Government is working to build a society that will not tolerate violence against women, domestic abuse or sexual violence, and this includes female genital mutilation. We will do this by educating our children and young people about healthy relationships and gender equality, as well as raising awareness across the whole population. This means that not only must professionals be trained to recognise FGM and those at risk, but also that we work with and in communities practising FGM in order to eradicate it altogether.
Support for those affected by FGM is critical. Our Live Fear Free website is a comprehensive resource for victims and families. It provides information on services available and where to go for help. The website supports the work of the helpline in providing advice and signposting. We wholly fund the helpline, which is run under contract by Welsh Women's Aid. People calling the helpline will be referred to appropriate local services, and we continue to fund local authorities and third sector organisations to provide advice and support services to victims and survivors.
And, of course, a large part of our work is focused on prevention. This takes two main forms: awareness raising amongst the public and education of our children and young people. Eradicating FGM, as a number of Members have highlighted, must be set firmly within the context of ending violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.Continued publicity campaigns are key in raising awareness, challenging stereotypes and challenging and changing unacceptable attitudes and behaviours.

Julie James AC: Despite significant work in Wales with the Welsh Government and its partners over the last few years, we know that many people are still at risk of or experiencing violence and abuse. As part of our long-term approach to raising awareness and changing attitudes, we are developing our national communications framework. This aims to ensure clear, joined-up and consistent messaging across Wales. We continue to work closely with local authorities, health boards and other partners, as well as the Home Office and criminal justice agencies in Wales. Through collaboration across both devolved and non-devolved areas, we can work to achieve our shared goals.
As part of helping us to prevent violence against women in the future, we have to focus on informing children to make sure they understand that FGM is a crime and a violation of human rights. As many Members have said, in September this year, the Cabinet Secretary for Education published the Government's new action plan, 'Education in Wales: Our national mission'. The action plan sets out how the school system will move forward over the period 2017-21, securing implementation of the new curriculum with a focus on leadership, professional learning, excellence and equity within a self-improving system.
The draft new curriculum will be made available to schools and settings in April 2019 for feedback and the final new curriculum will be made available by January 2020. The new curriculum will be introduced initially to all primary schools and year 7 in secondary schools in September 2022 and will subsequently roll out year on year in secondary schools from this point. The reason I highlight this is because we know that education services and schools in particular are well placed to spot the signs of abuse, and a number of Members have pointed this out. They know their children better than all the other services and are well placed to identify the warning signs and intervene at an early stage. Given their pivotal role, we will write to schools annually, reminding them of the risk posed to girls during the summer holidays and ensuring they know how to access help and support.
We will also continue to fund Hafan Cymru's Spectrum project, which works in primary and secondary schools across Wales. The programme teaches children about healthy relationships, abuse and its consequences and where to seek help. We also fund Welsh Women's Aid's Children Matter project in support of the prevention element of the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence Act. This project supports local services across Wales to challenge gender inequality experienced by children and young people and to improve safety.
We're clear in our aim to improve prevention, protection and support for victims and survivors, as set out in the Act and in our national strategy, which was published last year. The strategy articulates our commitment to tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in Wales. It sets out the objectives that, when achieved, will help us fulfil the purposes of the Act.
In developing the national training framework on violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, we have set out our requirements for training on these subjects across the public service and specialist third sector. The framework also includes a specialist subject syllabus, which will ensure that any training accessed locally by any profession meets the learning outcomes and can be properly assessed and is consistent with other training delivered across Wales.
'Understanding FGM' is one of the training courses within the specialist syllabus. The course covers current law and policy relating to FGM in Wales and the UK, including the Serious Crime Act 2015. Alongside this, we're developing 'ask and act', which will be rolled out across the public sector and help professionals recognise the signs of abuse and violence, and 1,200 employees of the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg health board and south-east Wales local authorities have been trained to 'ask and act'. There are 98 'ask and act' champions in south-east Wales and this pilot will provide a clear model of 'ask and act', which will be rolled out further in the rest of 2017.
For health professionals, there is the FGM care pathway for Wales, which promotes referral of any woman affected by FGM into primary care mental health services or third sector provision. FGM safeguarding leads have been appointed in all health boards in Wales. A data-collection process has been developed; monthly data on women and girls identified with FGM is being collated by Public Health Wales from maternity services. Any female infants born to women who've undergone FGM are being referred as a matter of course to social services for a protective intervention. To date, around 10 women per quarter have been identified with FGM and we are looking into the routine publication of information on FGM, which is currently collected.
Later this month, we'll be marking the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. This day is an important reminder that there is still much to do in ending violence against women and girls and ensuring gender equality. I want to say that I will also be taking a huge interest myself in this area and will be very much welcoming a lot of liaison with everyone in this Assembly who has any idea of any other things that we can do. I certainly will be taking forward the cross-government approach that has been highly recommended. We also need to make sure, as Julie Morgan highlighted, that whilst we condemn the crime, the act and the violence, we do not condemn the communities that have this ingrainedwithin them and that we do much to help them come to terms with where they are and develop as well.
We remain highly motivated and fully committed to continuing to prevent violence and abuse and to protect and support those who have been affected by these dreadful practices. Diolch.

Thank you very much. I call on Dai Lloyd to reply to the debate—Dai.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much, DPO. Yes, 'female genital mutilation' are not words we often talk about here in this Chamber, but it's well overdue that we should be shining a light on this hugely distressing issue. Can I thank first of all, Julie Morgan, and pay tribute to her, in fact, for her hard work over many years, and also to Carl Sargeant, but more of Carl in a minute?
The World Health Organization calls FGM, female genital mutilation, barbaric. Other words used are 'cruel' and, as we've heard, 'mutilating'. There's absolutely no health benefit whatsoever for girls and women, yet it is still carried out in many parts of the world today. As we've heard from some very powerful presentations this afternoon, procedures can cause severe bleeding, recurrent lifelong urinary problems, multiple infections, complications in childbirth—that's where I first saw my first case of FGM many years ago when I was doing obstetrics—and increased risk of newborn deaths as a result. It's no exaggeration to say that female genital mutilation is a complete violation of the human rights of girls and women. It needs restating, as has been stated, that it is actually illegal in this country and has been illegal for the past 32 years. It is abuse, and it's an extreme form of discrimination against women. All that has been said this afternoon and I'm just saying it to emphasise the gravity of the situation so that no-one be left in any doubt what this Chamber feels about this horrific, cruel, mutilating procedure.
We started this afternoon with Julie Morgan—a very powerful presentation, and obviously the visual presentation encapsulated the whole issue far better, actually, than many words can. But we need the words as well and we need the awareness-raising that such an individual Member's debate, such as this one, provides.We have had a comprehensive analysis of this whole monstrous issue. And, yes, we are left with the importance of awareness-raising among the involved communities and the importance of education in schools.
Very much the same theme was carried on by Jenny Rathbone and also by Jane Hutt, and I congratulate you both on your presentations, particularly as regards Jane and the awareness in schools and those warning signs, because there are still distressingly recent cases of FGM appearing in schools, although it remains hidden because, as we have heard, girls go on prolonged cutting holidays. It does highlight the need for a cross-governmental response, as both Jane and Jenny mentioned, and the importance of getting rid of this wall of silence in the involved communities. But we have to support and educate those communities where this procedure is still endemic.
I congratulate also Joyce Watson on her presentation this afternoon on the importance of speaking out about getting to grips with this wall of silence that is everywhere, regardless of the distress caused, I have to say, and, as Joyce was saying, the twisted misogynistic logic of still carrying out this procedure. And the World Health Organization reiterates a similar sort of language.
Turning finally to the leader of the house, Julie James, can I also congratulate Julie on her elevation and also on her powerful tribute to Carl Sargeant, who has done immense work in this field as regards violence against women and setting up and helping to set up many of the projects that were so expertly outlined by Julie James? Because this is about power and control over girls and women, and that is completely and utterly unacceptable. Support the motion. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Voting Time

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. Okay. So, we call for a vote on the motion tabled in the names of Julie Morgan, Angela Burns, Dai Lloyd, Joyce Watson and Jenny Rathbone. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion, 39, no abstentions, no-one against. Therefore, that motion is passed.

NDM6528 - Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): For: 39, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

10. Short Debate: The exploitation of immigrants to the UK by immigrant criminal gangs—Postponed from 8 November

We now move on to the short debate, so if you're going to leave the Chamber, can you do so quickly and quietly, please? I call David Rowlands to talk on the topic that he has chosen—David.

David J Rowlands AC: In Plenary, a few days before recess, theFirst Minister said thatleaving Europe would raise the cost of food for us in Wales. Well, perhaps the next time you shred the cabbage for Sunday lunch, or dice the carrots, you should spare a thought for the human cost of putting these and many other products on your table.
I want you to picture a scene at a BP petrol station. It's 4.00 a.m. on a cold January morning, the sky is still black, but the garage attendant has already been serving migrant workers for an hour or more. By 4.15 a.m., the silent figures from across the town have become a steady flow. Summoned by a text message the previous evening, they huddle on the forecourt waitingfor a succession of vehicles that would take them to the factories or fields around the area, where they would be put to work for 10 to 12 hours.
A female police officer is watching from her office in the police station, which, coincidentally, overlooks the petrol station. She was moved to this station, because she has special expertise on organised crime. She has observed the same scene being played out regularly for the last few months. She recognises this as a criminal gang-led activity, but is powerless to stop it. The sophisticated methods used by modern-day criminal gangs make prosecution very difficult. Victims are almost impossible to recruit as witnesses, far too scared to give evidence against these gangland bosses. This is quite understandable given thatthe local area has seen a spate of apparent suicides amongst young east Europeans over the last few years. Three were found hanging, and with one, there was a message daubed on a nearby wall—translated, it read, 'The dead cannot testify'.
These were by no means the only deaths amongst the local east European community. The remains of a 17-year-old Lithuanian girl were found five months after her disappearance. A Lithuanian courier had been burnt to death as he slept in his van, and all this in an area where murder had been virtually unknown a decade ago.
Most of us are unaware of this brutal paralleluniverse that often underpins our mainstream economy, but there are areas of the country where it is highly visible. The parliamentary constituency where the scene described above took place voted overwhelmingly in a 2017 survey to reaffirm their desire to leave the EU, recognising thatmass immigrationfrom eastern Europe was fundamentally changing their community.
So, if the police are awareof these operations, why are we not seeing large-scale prosecutions? Well, there are two main reasons: the sophistication of the gangland operations and the sheer scale of theproblem. The police simply do not have the manpower to cope with a huge explosion in the exploitationof mainly migrant workers that has occurred over the last decade, due almost exclusively to the policy of open borders.

David J Rowlands AC: The situation was vastly exacerbated with the accession of the east European states to the EU. Estimates of the likely numbers expected to come to the UK were often quoted as just tens of thousands. These have proved to be totally inadequate. We now have more than 4 million from eastern Europe in the UK. These are official figures and mask a huge underbelly of illegal immigrants who, being unknown to the authorities, are ripe for the worst sort of exploitation.
I said the criminal gangs have become very sophisticated in their operations. Some examples are witnessedin the fact that they take their victims to various bank branches in the surrounding area and supply them with false documents to open accounts, such things as utility bills, passports and identities. They then give the gangmaster's home address for the delivery of account correspondence on the pretense that the migrant can then claim benefits and seek work. This allows the gangs to hijack the victim's identity and obtain personal identification numbers et cetera. They will open a string of these accounts over which they have complete control. They then use them to launder money, obtain loans et cetera.
The gangs control huge numbers of these migrants, either trafficking them into the country themselves, while helping new arrivals with small loans and form filling et cetera. Many who do not speak the language find these tremendously helpful, and so easily fall into the hands of the criminal gangs. There is also, of course, the promise of jobs. The gangs will become the agents for work for the migrants, but the jobs given, with the deductions taken by the gangs for such things as accommodation, transport et cetera, will not pay sufficiently to repay the loans. And these unfortunates find themselves on the dreaded debt books kept by the gangmasters. From then on, they become virtual slaves, working simply to pay their upkeep and their debts.
Women who fall into the trap of this manufactured debt are usually given two options: travel to India or Pakistan to take part in a fake marriage for which the gangmasters will be paid upwards of £1,500, or be put to work as a prostitute. There's also a great deal of evidence to attest to far more gruesome manifestations of migrant exploitation where organs for transplant are harvested as a means of debt repayment.
What has become increasingly clear from my research into this subject is the deep hypocrisy that is displayed at the heart of the rhetoric used, particularly from those parties that profess to care about the working classes. Let us be clear here: it is almost exclusively the working classes who are being exploited in this way, yet the political left constantly claim mass, uncontrolled immigration is not only desirable, but is essential to the economy, and that open borders have a very positive effect on the UK. This rhetoric completely ignores the true reality of mass immigration and the resultant misery it causes to thousands of migrant workers. It promotes a business model that depends on a constant churn of workers to carry out jobs that are underpaid and insecure, at best, but are all too often dirty, dangerous and degrading as well. This scenario requires not just mass immigration, but mass immigration without end, since it is only the newly arrived, being both desperate and vulnerable, who can supply the fodder for continuing exploitation. As this exploitation is usually carried out by big business, be it legal or illegal, it beggars belief that the Labour Party still promotes an open-door policy on immigration.
The scene played out in that BP station each day is not simply about immigration or the human cost of cheap goods, or even a few isolated rogue operators.It is the manifestation of a profound social and economic change that has come about in little more than two decades, and which is the direct result of uncontrolled immigration.
Here, I have documented evidence and some convictions for those involved in the sex trade exploitation of immigrants. These are fromTheGuardian and the BBC, outlining some appalling instances. What both of these media giants fail to do is to identify the root cause of these ills. Mass immigration with a loss of border controls means no-one knows who or how people come to this country. There are those who contend that such controls will not eradicate the problem. Their argument is shown to have no substance. This sort of exploitation was almost unknown before the opening of our borders, and was usually in the hands of a small, localised, underground network. It is now a huge international operation controlled by multinational gangs who are making hundreds of millions of pounds annually through this human misery.
In the few instances where police have had success with prosecuting these criminal gangs, we may pause to ponder what is the cost of these prosecutions. Translation costs in our courts have now reached staggering proportions. It is said that a hugely disproportionate number of migrants now occupy our prisons. It has been worked out that if the propensity of foreign-born nationals to commit crime, based on representation in our prisons, were reflected in the indigenous population as a whole, occupancy of our prisons would be near 120,000, not the 84,000 we now have. And let us not forget there is overwhelming evidence to indicate that crime by ethnic minorities is often overlooked by authorities. We can also remind ourselves that the prison system is the last resort of the justice system, and only occurs if serious or multiple crime is involved. It goes without saying that the vast majority of crime is dealt with as non-custodial sentences: such things as community sentences, electronic tagging, et cetera. So, we must add the cost of monitoring these interventions to the expense of non-UK nationals' crimes, again amounting to an enormous cost to the public purse.
This, again, does not include the vast sums of money leaving the UK, both legally and illegally from migrant workers and the criminal gangs who exploit them. One wonders if any of these factors are taken into account when the economic benefits of mass immigration are being calculated—I very much doubt it. And note, I have not mentioned benefit payments.
Although the police have had some limited success in the prosecution of these criminal gangs, there is only one way to end this appalling exploitation of our fellow human beings, and it is to end mass immigration, take control of our borders, deal favorably with those people who are already here and being exploited, and have a comprehensive crackdown on those engaged in such exploitation, with severe penalties, including automatic deportation, for those involved. So, regardless of the First Minister's comments, if this puts a few pence on the cost of the food on my plate I, for one, am willing to pay it.

You didn't indicate that you had offered anybody a minute of your time in the short debate. Are you willing to give a minute of your time?

David J Rowlands AC: I am, indeed, yes. I'm sorry, Dirprwy Lywydd; I thought Joyce had indicated that she would like some time to speak.

No. It's your 15 minutes, and it's up to you, so you have to indicate whether you're happy for somebody to have a minute. I take it you are.

David J Rowlands AC: I am, in this case.

Right, okay—thank you. Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: I'm pleased to have a minute in this debate, but I'm not at all pleased about the debate; those two things are completely separate. I am, as everybody knows, the chair of the cross-party group on human trafficking or anti-slavery, and the founding member of that. I do find the whole tenor of what I have had to sit through and endure completely and utterly distasteful.I think it would have been far better to have served the needs of the people who need looking after and protecting if it hadn't been the case that we were focusing on one set of criminal gangs, and that was the immigrant. That is what runs through all of this. It is a pity, in my opinion, that the individual bringing this didn't actually look at what has happened in terms of the prosecutions of British-born perpetrators of this crime here in Wales, where that evidence was right under his nose, if only he had bothered himself to look for it.

I now call the leader of the house to reply to the debate. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The criminal exploitation of people, whether they come from outside of the UK or were brought up here, is slavery. The Welsh Government has a long-standing and consistent commitment to combating slavery and addressing the suffering it causes for victims.
I was extremely distressed at the tenor of the tone, and at some of the—I'm sorry to say—made-up statistics that were read out by the person proposing this short debate. I would invite him, if he has not done so already, to visit a prison in my locality, where he will certainly see that most of the inmates there are certainly not from outside the UK. There are large numbers of other issues around imprisoning people, which he should be very familiar with, given his background.
Of course, immigrants will be amongst those engaged in this vicious trade, but there are very many—[Interruption.] You can't intervene in a short debate.

David J Rowlands AC: [Inaudible.]

Julie James AC: Right; okay.

Sorry, but, yes, Ministers do have to take interventions; I'm sorry. David Rowlands.

Julie James AC: Go on.

David J Rowlands AC: I'm appalled that you don't take these figures. These are figures that I have investigated and are in the local and national press at all times. All the figures can be verified, I can assure you.

Julie James AC: I won't go into that debate, but we need to have that discussion elsewhere.
Of course, immigrants will be involved in this vicious trade, but there are very large numbers of other people involved in it. We absolutely do not need to stigmatise any immigrant community as seeing as synonymous the word 'immigrant' with the word 'gangmaster', for example. It's an extremely racist narrative and, actually, all it does is hamper our work to encourage victims to come forward, as does actually stigmatising people who don't come through the proper immigration routes. The idea that we currently have uncontrolled mass migration is, frankly, nonsense. The level of immigration here in Wales is tiny, as I've had previous experience of debating with this particular Member.
Anyway, getting on with the job of combating slavery should be the priority, regardless of the origins of the criminals. Slavery includes child exploitation, sexual exploitation, labour exploitation, criminal exploitation and, indeed, human tissue and organ harvesting. While formal responsibility for preventing these crimes is not devolved, we are committed to tackling slavery and increasingly seem to be leading the way in the UK through work such as that outlined by Joyce Watson, who has worked tirelessly in this regard, as have a number of others.
Slavery is a serious criminal offence under the Modern Slavery Act 2015, and the penalties range up to life imprisonment. Given the nature of this crime, the Home Office is unable to confirm the true number of victims; however, based on 2013 data, the Home Office chief scientific officer in 2014 estimated there were between 10,000 and 13,000 victims being exploited in some form of slavery in the UK. Earlier this year, the National Crime Agency stated that this number had been underestimated and that the real number may be in the hundreds of thousands. Potential victims of slavery were referred into the UK national referral mechanism. In 2016, the National Crime Agency reported that, in the UK, almost 4,000 victims had been referred, almost 3,500 from outside the UK. This included the 123 victims trafficked in Wales, of which 114 were from outside the UK. The National Crime Agency reported that there had been over 2,500 victims referred in the first six months of this year, and this included 109 referrals in Wales. At UK level, the National Crime Agency's Organised Crime Command leads on action against organised crime groups. The Organised Crime Command works with the police and other agencies to agree priorities and to ensure that appropriate action is taken against crime groups and gangs.
So, what are we actually doing in Wales? We are making Wales hostile to slavery. We remain the first and only country in the UK to appoint an anti-slavery co-ordinator. We've established the Wales anti-slavery leadership group to provide strategic leadership and guidance on how we tackle slavery. The leadership group will keep me updated on progress with this agenda,and I also expect to receiveregular updates from our anti-slavery co-ordinator. But, we recognise that no single agency can be effective in tackling slavery. This is why we are working with a wide range of partners, including the National Crime Agency, the police, and the UK Border Force. We're also working with UK Visas and Immigration, the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority and with theCrown Prosecution Service. In addition, we are working with BAWSO and Barnardo's Cymru who will provide support to the victims of this crime.
We are also working with partners to provide support for refugees comingto Wales, which will help reduce the risk of exploitation. We are also continuing to raise awareness of slavery. In 2016, the anti-slavery training that we have developed with partners was delivered to over 5,500 people in Walesacross the public, private and third sectors. With our partners, we continue to provide this training, and an estimated 5,000 people have already benefitedso far this year.
Slavery is a complex crime to investigateand prosecute; this is why we have worked with our partnersto develop joint training provision for senior investigating officers and Crown prosecutors. Thistraining course is a first for Walesand for the UK. In March this year, we launchedthe ethical employment in supply chains code of practice. This is aimed at makingsupply chains transparent and preventing exploitation of workers, which includesmigrant workers. This is also a first for Walesand the UK.
We are sharing our learningin Wales with other partners, including UK Government departments, and with the UK Independent Anti-slaveryCommissioner. In fact, our work in Wales is starting to gain serious international recognition. Until recently, slavery was a hidden crime and we know it is still under-reported. Thatis why we've introduced new data collection systems in Wales. We continueto work with partners to develop a better evidence base that will more accurately reflectthe level of slavery in Wales. Our collective work to raise awareness of slavery is expected to lead to an increase in the number of reported cases. It is through improved reporting that we can help ensure victims receive the support they need and that the perpetrators of this heinous crime can be brought to justice, and not through criminalisingthe people who are victims themselves.
We remain committed to tackling slavery, we remain committed to supporting victims, and we remain absolute in our commitment to making Waleshostile to slavery. Empty rhetoric about immigration can only damage that important work, while we in the Welsh Governmentare actually gettingon with the job.

14. Short Debate (Neil Hamilton)—Postponed to 22 November

Thank you very much, and that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 16:42.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport

Vikki Howells: How is the Welsh Government improving early diagnosis rates of cancer in the Cynon Valley?

Vaughan Gething: The cancer delivery plan published in November 2016 sets out our vision for cancer services and outcomes in Wales to match the best in Europe. This includes a renewed focus on detecting cancer earlier, making it more likely that treatment can be curative, less intensive and less expensive.

Mark Reckless: Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an estimate of the hours worked, including the value of those hours, by community health council volunteers?

Vaughan Gething: The number of hours worked by community health council members will obviously vary. However, for members who are appointed by Welsh Ministers, a guideline time commitment of between three and five days per month is provided. I am grateful to all CHC members for the valuable work that they do.

Lee Waters: What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the impact that changes in HMRC rules will have on out-of-hours GP care in Llanelli?

Vaughan Gething: This is a matter for health boards and NHS trusts as employers and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. HMRC have recently changed their regulations and the NHS is working with them on implementation of the revised regulations. Officials have monitored the position ensuring chief executives are taking action.

Adam Price: What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary given to the use of patient hotels within the Welsh health service?

Vaughan Gething: The provision of patient hotels is a matter for health boards to determine. Welsh Government expects that any environment provided for patients is safe and clinically appropriate.

Jenny Rathbone: What is the Welsh Government doing to drive up breastfeeding rates in Wales?

Vaughan Gething: We recognise the importance of breastfeeding and are committed to increasing breastfeeding rates and this issue remains a priority for Public Health Wales. I recently asked my officials and the Royal College of Midwives to facilitate a task and finish group to explore ways to further improve uptake and provide support to families.